"Battlefront Miniatures only" Topic

The thread has now been locked by BF ! Along with another 6 ?
LES

I have difficulty believing that simply because manufactures have been able to undercut BF's prices since the beginning. These companies have not gone out of business.

Instead, we see new companies with different and better manufacturing processes rising up and making better and better stuff (PSC).

I have often thought that far too many "small" companies do not think that the Universal Truths about quality and manufacturing efficiency did not apply to them. "But, you see, WE are different!"
No. You are not.

Well, I always suspect BF would at some point do this.
The whole 'Flames Of War' thing looked far to Games Workshop-ish for my liking.
And the rules,.. there a plenty of better options available, and what's with the 'Super characters'? I was waiting for a German 'Psycher' to make an appearance, or Adolf Hitler miniature that gis you a re-roll on EVERYTHING until you (he) get's what he wants.
:o)
And how many versions of the rules / army lists do you need? You would have thought they would have got it sorted out by now or was version one really really bad?
Finally the pricing. Why would I buy a single Battlefront tank when I can get 3 all metal models, (of superior quality IMHO) from Old Glory / Command Decision? And of course the Forged in Battle stuff is pretty good.
More fools them I say.
BT is not dealing with a bunch of pimple faced teens who are happy to spend $6 USD-$26 on a single Wood Elf with the power of 40 Orks. Historical gamers are a tad more canny and mature (and poorer).
The fact they closed down the thread speaks volumns about their contempt for their patrons / customers.
Oh, and as for:

Don't see any problem with that, their comp, their mini's and their rules

Once I purchase THEIR RULES and THEIR MINIS they are now MY RULES and MY MINIS.
"Thanks BF, you have been suitable renumirated in payment from my pocket. No, seriously, no need to thank me,..".
WE owe YOU?!?!? Get real.

FOW is what drives the WWII 15mm gaming community

Someone needs to let the TOO FAT LARDIES and the CROSSFRIE guys to pack up all their excellet WW2 rules. Apparently BF has that covered.
Arrogance has a new name,…
I'll be unsubscribing my Wargames Illustrated I think.

Well was going to post my views on BF forum but got nerfed. While I respect (in part), the request by J-P to give time to respond, I believe that other aspects needed to also be addressed in this response, but it appears your not allowed to raise them on BF forum at the moment.

I'm not a huge forum poster – nominal in fact.

I don't play many tourneys and nil BF endorsed so the impact on me is nil.

I run 100% BF mini's other than terrain.

Where I do take offense is the attitude that is being conveyed, not so much the issue of non BF mini's, but on J-P's initial response on 12 July where he basically rammed down our throat we should be so grateful re the free V3 softcover.

1. After spending thousands of dollars on BF product (ask Modelair in Auckland), when does my display of gratitude have to end? (pretty soon I'm expecting),
2. Where is BF gratitude to me putting up with sub quality books that fall apart – including the free softcover. Never asked for a replacement.
3. Did we not deserve the softcover for issue pre issue of V3? For example, selling (issuing) sets of 3 planes right up to V3 when wham bam you only need 1 plane – CR42s anyone?
4. Did you not have to had purchase V2 to get V3 softcover?
5. I purchased the V3 pack regardless of the softcover.

J-P I would have expected done well from the hobby, likewise has done a lot for the hobby, that doesn't give anyone the right to take me for granted and ram down my throat the "token" he has give me in response to my thousands of $ to him.

It's said that supermarket chains would go bust if people boycotted them for a couple of days, the time frame might be longer, but the principle still applies to other industries.

Just my thoughts and wanted to vent them – sorry.

Nick R no need to be sorry mate, when people like yoourselves that do not normally post do so it time fro BF to realsie it is not just a vocal minorty they have aleintated but the silent majorety too
All that will be left soon is the minorety fans if they do not have a change of heart and a genuine apology

Yeap, with say 10 x A4 paper boxes of unmade 100% BF minis on the shelves, whats made etc, maybe a box or two to buy then my support for buying high profit margin minis will be gone and will be flipping pages in lower profit margin BF books and push exist BF minis or some other manufacturers…sad.

They won't miss me too much if at all, but 200 or 300 hundred of me…hmmmmmm

Breaking news via Andras on WWPD forum
John Paul posted:

Quote:

Pete, John Mathews and I have been discussing the issue these past few hours and realise that making a rushed decision today will not benefit anyone. We have consensus from all three of us, the BF board, that we will change our stance on this issue but will not be able to finalise exactly what that means today as it is already 4.30pm here and 12.30am on the east coast.

We will convene again first thing in the morning to put in writing our formal reply and will post it on the website. We do appreciate the constructive feedback and have definitely listened to what is being said. We have proved in the past many times that we can accept feedback and change our plans as only a fool does not listen to their supporters so thank you and enjoy the rest of the weekend. I am off to get an aspirin and a cup of tea

flamesofwar.com/Default.aspx … &afv=topic

WOW- maybe there is some hope for people power
I hope they take some time to think about why people were really upset
It is not just about a policy change it is how it was done and the philosopy behind it that stuck in peoples craw (thought I would throw that one in there seeing as I am on a US forum)

Yes, understanding of REAL issue required.

Inital ban of non BF – done because of money, is the conclusion the same – ie people boycotting their product.

Attitude of contempt for customers may still remain.

They have shown their hand, I won't touch BF with a barge pole. The fact remains they tried to pull a Evil Empire on their customers.

Another 180 in the offing?

That's just a betrayal of the "quite a lot" of people who don't enjoy playing FoW when their oppoenent has non-BF models in his army. Who's going to speak up for them now, huh?

"That's just a betrayal of the "quite a lot" of people who don't enjoy playing FoW when their oppoenent has non-BF models in his army. Who's going to speak up for them now, huh?"

imaginary excuses don't normally need a mouthpiece!

"Yes, understanding of REAL issue required.

Inital ban of non BF – done because of money, is the conclusion the same – ie people boycotting their product.

Attitude of contempt for customers may still remain."

sales pre PSC provides 1 million dollars profit going on cruise holidays, BMW's and new fishing boats.

Sales Post PSC with the same overheads means….need money in to break even and invest in plastics?…or cut backs….possibly seen already with that sculpter who set up his own range last year with bulge german infantry?

certainly internet sellers have been pushed to take product even when they have no longer got a B&M store. hy were turned down because they are still stocked up and any sales were the odd blister with buckets of PSC.

Personally, I am looking forward to their plastic sarter set for the V1 launcher! Anyone want the plasic infantry and the mini book?

Seriously though do these supposed players that don't like playing against non BF armies also dislike badly painted BF armies?

You're assuming that these players exist outside the ludicrous PR drivel creating machine that is John Matthews' mind.

BF are in a lose/lose situation now. If they stick to their guns they'll reap more of the same bad feeling. If they change their mind they'll look weak, implying that their reasoning for the original decision was poorly thought through. They'll probably never regain the same trust of their customers and they've opened up a schism among them – gamers vs fanboys. And while the non-BF model crowd may welcome an about-face the pro-BF model crowd will be made to look like their slavish loyalty has been rejected by the company they love.

The mischievous little goblin in me is loving this.

Alex. unforutnately I think your summary is pretty spot on

Do BF actually give cash prizes for winning the competitions?..I never realised that

Nothing to do with this thread really,I was just reading some commments and that seemed to be what they were saying

Is this true?

Not as far as I know – prizes in kind, however the Mastera involved free accomodation, food and a beer or two

Oh ok…I must have infered it wrongly

I am very glad to see one of the other pillars about BF that I have always respected is still in place…that is it their willingness to really pay attention to their supporters.

I do not expect a full on reversal, but rather a revision that goes something along the lines of "Yes, bring any and all makes to game with us. We are happy to have you with us. But do understand that we may give special considerations (lower entry fee, army scoring bonus, etc) to those who make full use of our miniatures as so we can show our appreciation to them. Choice is still there, nobody's left out, and there is an incentive to get what they want, more BF model presence at a BF event.

Hopefully in the future they may look to solicit some supporter feedback before trying to emplace such a radical and contentious policy.

Apparently they did ask players for feedback at the Masters and were told this is what would happen. They just chose to ignore what would seem obvious to everyone outside their organization. They seriously convinced themselves that by adopting this policy incrementally and with the subtle pressure on the market that they would greatly increase their sales by doing this. They thought they could weather the storm, because they have ignored some many quality/value issues with their products. And just when it was becoming obvious that their miniatures customers were going elsewhere because of those vlaue issues. They convinced themselves it was PSCs fault, rather than realizing that people have really meant the complaints they made.

There is a key point in war, never believe your own propaganda (or the enemies).

In business it should translate to never believe what your marketing department writes. You believe what your customers say.

I strongly disagree that they should fix who wins a tournament for a rules system, based on whose figures you use. That is worse because rather than jsut banning people, you undermine the entire competitive culture and integrity of the game.

DOn't allow non_BF figures in the separate painting competition, give swag to those who do bring BF (though giving non-BF users quality BF products might convince them to buy more).

The fact they closed down the thread speaks volumns about their contempt for their patrons / customers.

There are some more facts here that need to be addressed.

On page 38 of the thread JP posted:

I would like to ask you all to stop posting for long enough to calm down a little. I ask this rather than simply locking the thread to show you that Pete are trying to take on board the comments that are being made so we can think about how to respond but if this behaviour continues there will be no place to be heard and that is not what any of us want. This is obvisouly very contentious and I would like the chance respond in some professional way. Please save your thoughts, by all means read what has gone before and give us until tomorrow, it is midnight here in NZ, to reply as that is what is called for here and Pete and I will discuss this tomorrow monring and I will post an update on the topic when I have something to say.

He was saying: they got the message, they wanted sometime to considered it all, some on the thread which had gotten rather nasty and there was no need to continue with it until he had chance to reply.

The pointlessness still continued and maybe got even a little nastier. It went on to 44 pages and then it and the six other redundant "sub-threads" it spawned were locked by JP.

So "contempt for their patrons/customers?" Maybe not so much. He was involved in the discussion, he made it clear he was listening to his customers, he made it clear that the senior staff would look hard at what had transpired and what impact it might have to have on their forward course of action. He asked for refrain, epecially from the ugliness on both sides, until they had made their formal reply.

Most customers I think would be happy with that acknowledgement and most, even those like me who were completely opposed to this new policy, realize that the thread had gone on long beyond its usefulness, well before page 44. These facts and the fact that the thread continued for so very long really makes a case for "contempt" hard to support.

Cheers, VB

Howdy Airborne Engineer

Apparently they did ask players for feedback at the Masters and were told this is what would happen.

If you are referring to the US Masters, I'm not so sure that is exactly the case. I was there and I don't recall such a poll or conversation. It may have been some side discussions with some of the players. John Matthews(BF #3 guy) was there so I'd believe that. Even if they did take a poll there it would have just been from 18 dudes. They have a huge forum presence, so a simple poll there would have been MUCH better. That's what they are getting now anyway.

There is a key point in war, never believe your own propaganda (or the enemies).
In business it should translate to never believe what your marketing department writes. You believe what your customers say.

True that my Airborne brother!

I strongly disagree that they should fix who wins a tournament for a rules system, based on whose figures you use. That is worse because rather than jsut banning people, you undermine the entire competitive culture and integrity of the game.

I can appreciate your concerns. But for me it's not about who wins, but about choice. If somebody is solely focused on squeezing out every drop of competitiveness so he can to win one of these things, then he best come and play with an all BF collection as that's one the drops that will be scored. Your choice. If you just want to throw into the mix for a day of gaming with pals from afar and are not worried about standings, come on in with whatever model you want. Your choice.

The "army scoring" is a minor part of the overall score in most events. Its impact may not be significant enough to stop someone from winning if he's done really well.The reality is most of the cats who routinely win these shindigs are using 90%+ BF models already anyway. There may be no real impact on who wins these things anyway.

So maybe not as bad as it may seem and still very much open?

DOn't allow non_BF figures in the separate painting competition, give swag to those who do bring BF (though giving non-BF users quality BF products might convince them to buy more).

Can't argue there.

Cheers, VB

But do understand that we may give special considerations (lower entry fee, army scoring bonus, etc) to those who make full use of our miniatures …

Oh, Lordie…
That would be SO much worse?
"The Olympic Track and Field Committee has decided that in the event of a tie, the gold medal will go to Ikengwye OFMsson of Slobbovia, on account of his higher value Nike contract."
I cannot think of a WORSE outcome than deciding winners and losers by the proportion of BF miniatures in the army.

Agreed that there is no problem with BF-exclusive painting competition, IF SPONSORED BY BF.
Historicon painting competition? No way.

BTW, if BF DOES reverse this decision, I would be very impressed by the maturity of that. You do not often see such willingness to listen.

I noticed very few, if any, respondents to these assorted threads on TMP asserting the superiority of BF produced figures and models. Quite the opposite. If they WERE demonstrably superior, AND price-competitive, perhaps the uproar would be more muted.

What BF REALLY needs to do is hire a quality manager who will not accept the "We are unique, and that's the way it's done" attitude that seems to permeate their production.
Happily (or grumpily) replacing defective parts is a bandaid over a much larger problem. It shows a willingness to ACCEPT poor quality. Trying to evade these issues by dictatorial fiat is even worse.

"Army scoring" is the smallest part of the overall score (maybe 15%?). They are scoring partially at least based off an army's appearance, yes? They probably think BF models appear better to begin with. I expect this would just be formalizing what they already do.

When I say "army scoring" I'm talking about the score you get for the look/presentation/history aspects of your army. And that score does not have to soley tied into the % of BF models you have, BUT it could be part of it.

Like I said above…the dudes that win the BF run tournamnets do so with forces that are neary entirely BF models already. The impact on who wins, minor. The value from letting anybody show up to play with whatever they have, major.

I noticed very few, if any, respondents to these assorted threads on TMP asserting the superiority of BF produced figures and models. Quite the opposite. If they WERE demonstrably superior, AND price-competitive, perhaps the uproar would be more muted.

Quite right there John and if this was true there would never have been a need to try to implement such a lame policy in the first place.

…the dudes that win the BF run tournamnets do so with forces that are neary enirely BF models already.

It could also be because today's "killer model" is not produced by anyone else.
Not that it is by any means a "killer tank", but who else makes a Finnish BT-42? Or a KV-85? Or a Sherman Caliope?
God b;ess 'em for making the weird stuff to fit their lists.

Baaaaaah!
Let's settle and roll this up, so I/we can get back to bitching about important things, like the lack of an Old Glory Jumbo or Chaffee or BT-5, and the long wait for "Barbarosa"!
I want to get back to making fun of Patton and Monty as a Company Commander.

QRF make BT-42s, Peter Pig do Calliopes……

But do understand that we may give special considerations (lower entry fee, army scoring bonus, etc) to those who make full use of our miniatures …

Oh, Lordie…
That would be SO much worse?
"The Olympic Track and Field Committee has decided that in the event of a tie, the gold medal will go to Ikengwye OFMsson of Slobbovia, on account of his higher value Nike contract."

You can't win if you can't get in the door. So what would be the big difference? The answer would be that you could still particpate and have fun. I think that has value.

I cannot think of a WORSE outcome than deciding winners and losers by the proportion of BF miniatures in the army.

I'm not at all suggesting it become the main determinant. I'm suggesting it maybe becomes a portion of the smallest area that determines one's overall score. Could be talking less than 5% of the score in the end it it's something "Army Score" is 1/3 how well it's painted, 1/3 history write up, 1/3 % of BF models." Could be very, very, minor in the end. Could be small enough that someone who totally kicks @$$ can still win with NO BF models.

And I truly believe that is informally done already when it comes to "Army Scores" at BF sponsored events. So if it is, we're just making it "official."

Baaaaaah!
Let's settle and roll this up, so I/we can get back to bitching about important things, like the lack of an Old Glory Jumbo or Chaffee or BT-5, and the long wait for "Barbarosa"!

Ha!!! What? We'd be slackers here then. The BF forum got up to 44 pages on this before it was locked. We're just on a measly 6!!!! :)

Why doesn't BF just buy PSC out?

I agree that this should not have happened – and damage caused may not be able to be completely undone by a new response…

But being willing to change your mind is far and away the second best option to not making mistakes at all…

James

Why doesn't BF just buy PSC out?

Why would PSC sell?

Currently they're doing very well, getting good publicity and are probably making a reasonable living.

Is it possible that the simple reason for this new policy is simply the embarassment of having BF tourney players and onlookers ooh-ing and aah-ing over the crispness, detail, scale, price, and extras (ie stowage) of BF's competitors AT the tournaments? On a side note, I waited several years for BF to release its early war French. I took one look at the infantry and moved on to another project. I may be crazy but I'm not stupid. YMMV.

BF are in a lose/lose situation now. If they stick to their guns they'll reap more of the same bad feeling. If they change their mind they'll look weak, implying that their reasoning for the original decision was poorly thought through. They'll probably never regain the same trust of their customers and they've opened up a schism among them – gamers vs fanboys.

This. This is spot on.

If you were tracking this closely on the BF forums they are under criticism for three areas.

1) Failure of supply chain to produce large enough quantity of high enough quality figures
2) Poor game design decisions that actually make the game worse.
3) Turn around on long standing pro-hobby, pro-gamer policies.

None of these are new--not even remotely. However what is becoming apparent is just how numb BF has become to any criticism, even the most obviously correct (and even sometimes officially acknowledged) ones. There are also reports of BF not paying attention to feedback from play-testers and higher end volunteer event organizers, but I cannot corroborate that. I can confirm that they have massively messed up on several forces/rules/even a whole theater, and were told repeatedly that there were problems. In the end though, gamers had to deliberately wreck multiple tournament results to get their attention.

It shouldn't take a @h!tstorm of this magnitude to get their attention, and the fact that such a storm was absolutely going to happen should not surprise them in the slightest either.

I also noticed that twice the removal of the forum altogether was mentioned, but honestly they may just in the place where they no longer want feeback, or don't think its worth the trouble.

Which is a shame, as clearly if they had been paying any kind of attention they would understand the underlying causes to their loss of $$$, and also just how much loyalty to the brand they were actually being afforded by people who predominantly game Flames of War.

But now I really think that they DON'T understand this, nor are all that interested feedback, regardless of what the final decision on this basically symbolic issue is. That just doesn't matter--tip of the iceberg, when its the part below that sinks you.

Shan

Good post Shan.

And still the elefant in the room is: why a company would like to retain customers that they have already lost? (They are not using their miniatures, by their own confession)GW wouldn't be the business they are if they wouldn't have enforced conformity in THEIR hobby.

Yes, there is a GW Hobby, as there is a FoW Hobby… the second one vaguely related to WWII. Both have their own particular characteristics and peculiarities, that set them apart from other Sci-Fi/Fantasy/WWII gaming enviroments. When I game FoW, I am gaming FoW, not WWII. For gaming WWII I use another rulesets (KGN or IABSM, mostly; sometimes even Rapid Fire) and other miniatures sizes (20mm). FoW hobby and WWII gaming are not the same.

Some people claims that they do not buy BF miniatures; that they prefer to use PSC or Old Glory. May be they buy one campaign book and the Big Book. Just maybe, because some have already acknowledge that they download them from the Internet. They are not BF customers.

I agree with the quality issues of FoW miniatures. I am painting a comission now (Soviet Battalion) and the miniatures are a pain in the ass to paint! And I am a guy who really likes 'monkey-looking' minis! (Britannia fan here, guys!)But I like them because they are easier to paint, and sadly that's not the case with BF miniatures.

I think the vast majority of BF customers like myself who now purchase many items from PSC, Peter Pig and FIB, still buy BF products. I buy from all of the above including BF and will continue to do so.

FOW is not a hobby, it is a set of WW2 rules from a company who also sell WW2 miniatures.

Wargaming is a hobby, FOW is nothing more than a game within that hobby.

BF need to improve the quality of their miniatures
Stop increasing their prices.
Sort out the rules/play test issues they refuse to even acknowledge exist.
Stop acting like a bunch of arrogant di*ks

Andy

PS Good post Shanhoplite…..

@ VB, if the issue of the word "contempt" is based on my usage on this page, it was clearly detailed as applying to JP's first response and the issue of the V3 rule book.

I have not posted on the BF since due to his request.

I do note however that a supportive thread of BF is running free with back slapping alround. Within however a negative comment has been deleted.

I think the word contempt is still applicable.

Thanks

Your views are certainly valid Nick, but I'll hold off on throwing the contempt card myself until I see what the final decision forward is. Thus far I'm optimistic that it may indicate that they are willing to listen to their support base and change policy based on that input. That might suggest that they value their support base rather than hold its members in contempt. We'll see.

On thread locking as basis for determining contempt, there are "pro-BF" threads that were locked like:

"Dance with the one that brought you – Thoughts on recent BF decisions"

"Thread for those who are with battlefront."

But the reality is no matter what slant the thread was intended to have, all sides ultimately weigh in making them all more "centrist" in the end.

BTW, what "Pro" thread is still running that has you irked? I'd like to check it out.

VonBurge wrote:

Thus far I'm optimistic that it may indicate that they are willing to listen to their support base and change policy based on that input

It takes a really special sort of customer friendly company to change their minds about a stupid business decision once they wake up to the fact that it's going to cost them tens of thousands of dollars.

VonBurge wrote:

Thus far I'm optimistic that it may indicate that they are willing to listen to their support base and change policy based on that input

It takes a really special sort of customer friendly company to change their minds about a stupid business decision once they wake up to the fact that it's going to cost them tens of thousands of dollars.

Thus far they've just seen the BF forum response from those that many here normally over-characterize as mindless fanboys (or something to that effect) but yet have shown they are willing to counter BF on what they know is not right. The accountant feedback is not hitting them in the face right now. So for now I think it's reasonable to give them some credit for listening/believing their customers.

What BF REALLY needs to do is hire a quality manager who will not accept the "We are unique, and that's the way it's done" attitude that seems to permeate their production.
Happily (or grumpily) replacing defective parts is a bandaid over a much larger problem. It shows a willingness to ACCEPT poor quality. Trying to evade these issues by dictatorial fiat is even worse.

After about a zillion LEGO sets, I was SURE that we had finally come across one with a missing part. LEGO customer service was super-friendly and promised to ship the part from Denmark without concern.

Of course, we found the part two days later.

I called them back to stop the shipment but it was too late – they were already on it. No worries, says I, just let me know the part cost and shipping and I'll pay for it since it was my error, not theirs.

"Oh, thanks for calling us, but we're just happy you have the part. Use the replacement for whatever project you do next."

Those folks don't mess around with QC or customer service.

My point is not whether they should or should not have been happy to replace it. The REAL point is that the part was never missing in the first place! Until BF reaches the point where there is NO NEED to replace missing parts, they do not have a grip on their isssues.
I bring this up a lot, and someone always comes along to chide me that they are "different", and "a proper quality control program is way too expensive." Poppycock and balderdash.

JP and Co just posted this on their main page:

In all the years we have been in business we have had an open and honest policy about listening to our gamers and genuinely taking their views on board to the extent of sometimes changing our plans. We apologise for the confusion and angst our announcement has caused as it was never our intention. We did not see this change as a big problem as we were simply formalising something we already thought was existing practise, albeit informally.

In the interests of compromise and fairness to everybody's opinion we will change the word "all" to "majority" (meaning over half) in the tournament rules for the 2013 season. Although we were not clear enough about this last week we did not consider die cast planes, scratch built models or objectives (assuming they are the right size), terrain or models we do not currently make to be covered by this. As is always the case, if you are unsure simply get in touch with your tournament organiser and clarify the situation but we are going to revert to the best option in all cases, common sense.

The new season rules take effect from the masters in December this year and only apply to the officially run BF tournaments listed on our site. Independent tournaments are free to choose their own system, as they always have been.

One of the feedback ideas that did come back from our weekend conversations that we really liked was to also further reward people who came along with 100% BF armies. This is an idea that we will definitely work on for the future.

We are committed to supporting and growing the FOW hobby and want to invest more in the future, in events, the website and programs like the Rangers all of which we are happy to spend money on to provide this to you for free.

We want to thank our moderators for doing such a sterling job this weekend especially given they had no warning at all. We appreciate all the civil comments whether for or against. We feel that our compromise shows that we believed all views have merit. We hope this once again proves that we do listen.

Pete, John & John-Paul

FYI

tl;dr – "Oops. We'll try to roll this out gradually next year."

Got to give them credit for listening to their customers and responding quickly.

I notice J-P did not specify majority by points so I guess it is number of models – is that figures or bases – does one non-BF figure disqulaifty the whole base – care to count my full battalion of Strelk?
What fun – so glad they took the time to think this one through

tl;dr – "Oops. We'll try to roll this out gradually next year."

-Exactly! :)

I would argue that this was a foolish decision. There are SO many WWII manufacturers and BF events have been held for 8+ YEARS before this fiat. So many troops/vehicles are not covered by BF, and of course there is the quality issue…

It is BF's sandbox, though – if they support/run a tourney, they can dictate the rules. The solution to this exclusivity nonsense is run independent tourneys. If they argue that they need this miniature exclusivity to continue to support the event and tourney scene then GET OUT OF THE EVENT AND TOURNEY SCENE! Make your monies making stuff that others do not make, make BETTER minis than the other people, and come out with more books/fluff/scenarios/etc. Heck, even GW figured this out!

GW had draconian figure requirements in the 90s and early 00s (it *was* their sandbox….). The corporate office decided to get out of the direct tourney scene. What happened? There are MORE indy tourneys now, MINIMAL manufacturer requirement (most have a 50%-60% GW rule), and more after-market bitz for GW minis (which also increases GW sales). It was a win-win.

Ken

I'd not worry about exact percentage and stand counting there Truscott. I think they are just looking swag and an honest attempt to get to one half.

For me, I'm not sure this comprimise quite "does it." I will need to reflect on it more.