"BF PR triumph" Topic

well this will make people buy more and more BF stuff fer sure
flamesofwar.com/Default.aspx … rt_id=3379

"And, although it seems childish to draw a line in the sand and say, "If you want to play at our events and support the FOW hobby, you should not be bringing other people's models along," it is absolutely that simple. Our business is a business and we want Flames Of War to grow; we intend to give it the best support we can, but this support has a cost."

I think we must have been posing at the same time

meh!

Can you pin down that quote with a more complete link?

If what you quote is accurate, I can think of no better way to shrink American tournaments to 20% of their current size.

Are they upset because people use Old Glory models, priced at 30% of their product, and of comparable quality?
There is a way to combat this, and forbidding their use is not it. Gamers will just take their toys and play something else.

That quote is from the "BF events article…news confirmed on BF models" thread in the general section of the BF forum. It is from John Paul of BF so he has the staff avatar.

link

The final change we are making is that from the new season all the events we run with will be only allowing Battlefront miniatures to be used. This is bound to cause some debate, so let me be clear as to why we have chosen to go down this path. Joe, Gareth and our events cost a great deal of money to run: a little over a quarter of a million American dollars this year alone. And, although it seems childish to draw a line in the sand and say, "If you want to play at our events and support the FOW hobby, you should not be bringing other people's models along," it is absolutely that simple. Our business is a business and we want Flames Of War to grow; we intend to give it the best support we can, but this support has a cost.

Another company that thinks by bullying, profits will rise.

Only fan boys will not be upset by this. Most people don't like bullies.

I have a fair amount of BF stuff. No other 15mm WW2. If I buy more, it will definately not come from BF. The reason I do not have more is their GW/Foundry/BF prices.

Forged In Battle is probably the tipping point for BF. They could ignore the other competition as only FOW stuff was present in most stores, OG etc being online order only, and only if you knew they existed. FiB is being pushed onto store shelves in direct competition with FOW for new player's money.

Don't forget Plastic Soldier Company.

Think about how damaging it is to Battlefront – they want to get into Plastic miniatures. But they aren't going to start selling 5 StuGs for half the price of the resin/metal versions. Which is something that I can get from PSC, and it's a superior product.

Indeed, that would reduce the playability of my armies as I have figures from BF, Peter Pig, Old Glory, and virtually every other manufacturer out there who does WWII in 15mm or 1/100 scale. It is the same old GW mentality which saw them hold tournaments where non-GW models were not allowed to GROW THE GAMES-WORKSHOP HOBBY.

This is the "Grow the Battle Front Hobby" post to let everyone know that they think they have a monopoly on WWII gaming. Which is sad really, because no matter how hard I try to push it locally, it just isn't catching on and those who do play, will just as easily enjoy any other WWII rule set.

As for their justification

Joe, Gareth and our events cost a great deal of money to run: a little over a quarter of a million American dollars this year alone.

Well, marketing your product has a cost, and while that cost may seem high, in my opinion it will cost them more followers than it will gain them. If they had a price reduction they would probably sell more models and make more money.

Just keep gaming but not at 'official' tournaments.

If you care that much about playing the big tournaments then you'll follow the 'rules', if you play for fun doesn't affect you at all. Much the same with GW at our club and local tourney circuit.

I don't play in tournaments, but if I did, I wouldn't mind this so much if it wasn't for the fact that most of their range is (IMHO) poorly done (sculpted and cast -- I have yet to work in a BF tank FREX that DIDN'T have casting issues), and charge a PREMIUM on their products. I'll continue to buy PSC kits, supplemented with the occasional OG/QRF or other manufacturer's products…

Damon.

I do agree with their statement that it seems childish, beyond that they have lost a fan.

I'm guessing that they failed on their attempted foray into plastic miniatures and decided that actually competing and winning customers against their competition wasn't going to work out.

They failed I think – listening to John-Pauls answers on the WWPD podcast because they went with a very expensive ex-GW caster in plastic
He then went on to ridicule PSC calling them toys and made in China – both of which I beleive to be untrue
But then this is coming from a man that as recently as last year went on public record saying BF would NEVER ban compettiors products fromt heir competitions!

"calling them toys and made in China"

What, as opposed to Malaysia? At least the Chinese understand QC…

IIRC in the interview Will said they were designed and made in UK – I could be mistaken on that though?

He then went on to ridicule PSC calling them toys and made in China – both of which I beleive to be untrue
But then this is coming from a man that as recently as last year went on public record saying BF would NEVER ban compettiors products fromt heir competitions!

They seem pretty desperate.

They have stretched their costs with Marketing, staff,incredible number of SKUs, you name it
They suffer with the USD going down
They suffer from the economic situation that is not going to recover all that soon
They suffer from fair competition that has found a way to produce cheaper products, that is reactive and IMHO quite nice

High costs, market share shrinking, sales going down, it's time for them to renew themselves or go down. They do have a serious problem on their hands.

I see wot you did there DrDee, you norty munkey!

;)

Now might be a very good time to get those luverly WWII winter Germans on to the market Baron Trapdoor?

Good things come to those who wait my dear Trotter.

Baron you tease, they are stunning but as luck would have it I have a whole KG Bake undercoated that needs a bit of work before I get to the infantry, will keep an eye on your site though.
Now back to our scheduled programe

Sorry to derail the thread here, but if those winter Germans TT is referring to are the Flytrap ones, they look amazing! Sign me up for a company when they are released, they'll make great Volksgrenadiers.

They are indeedy the Flytrap ones lcannard

Plastic Soldier Company here – Mr Brisigotti should check he facts before opens his mouth.

All PSC products are designed and manufactured in the UK 0 even the packaging

All PSC products are designed and manufactured in the UK 0 even the packaging

YES, and that why I support you even more

I thought so Catman2, I felt his comments were a cheap shot that reflected badly on John-Paul and BF as a company thats why I mentioned it as it stuck me as petty and spiteful at the time and not the sort of behaviour I would expect from a businessman who wanted to win friends and influence people

Liking the look of the PSC stuff. Got a box of em en route. They'll replace my BF purchases as soon as theres some more British armour out.

I doubt PSC couldn't have had any better advertising for their new game and their figures if they'd paid for it. I think it's clear who the winners from this brouhaha are going to be.

I listened to the podcasst and he actually only put 'toy' in PSC's name…constantly. but he constantly referred to BF stuff as toy soldiers too. So I just get the idea he refers to stuff as toys a lot.

…and he actually refers to "ramble about moulds..ramble about techniques….ramble about the casting in the UK by the guy who does the frames.. mentions lots of companies that the 'guy' also does and other manufacturers who use that technique… drops in PSC "and Zvenda in China I believe" . It sounded like he was refering to companies that did their moulds a specific way then referenced zvenda doing theirs in China….

I'm sure BF is aware of the fallout this unpopular and un-PR decision will generate. This may well have put them ahead of GW on people's 'most hated' list.

For BF to make such a desperate decision tells me that in their minds they have nothing more to lose. Of course, they'll lose many diehard fans, but these diehard fans no longer buy BF miniatures anyway.

OTOH there will be others who regards this as no big deal, shrug and keep on playing FoW with BF minis. These people like the rules so much that they're willing to make the sacrifice of paying more for BF minis to support the hobby. It's called brand loyalty and rewarding the people who make the game you love.

Disclaimer – I don't play, nor have ever played FoW, so I'm not one of their so-called 'fanboys.'

I play FoW, enjoy it, and the vast majority of my figs are Battlefront, but I'm angry at what they have done. I recently invested in a PSC Irish Guards (Shermans & Firefly) based army, and now I can't use it in tourneys. I relied on JP's assurances that it was not their intent to prevent other minis from being used.

Ok, let me know if I am getting this right: they run official tournaments and spend 250,000 USD in doing so. Now they want that the players that goes to those tournaments use BF miniatures when attending those events. Shocking! Absolutely shocking! They want attendants to the tournaments organized by THEM to use the miniatures THEY produce. They want to RECOVER their EXPENSES!!! How dare they! Shocking, I tell you! It's shocking!

Basileus – that is after repeatedly saying that they would never do any such thing……

@basileus66

That's what I said in the original 'Battlefront miniatures only' thread earlier today (excerpt here):

It costs BF to organize and run these sanctioned FoW tournaments, so if they allow the use of non-BF miniatures and models they are in fact benefiting the other companies' bottom line at their own expense. And why would they do that and 'slit their own throat?'

Of course, the 'pro-choice' people will have none of it.

@Etranger

Here's the full text transcribed in greater clarity:

Just to agree/confirm with the people who have already said this we have never had any notion to stop people buying or playing with other models and the fact the market for historical miniatures has always been full of choice is what makes it what it is. Seeing other companies push the envelope is great and having watched the last few years of 28mm plastics go from a single Perry frame to what it is today I am excited by the challenge as it makes all the companies work harder.

I leave you by saying that as soon as we have somthing to show you that we might be working on we will. I can absolutely say 100% for sure it is not a T-34 kit and it is definitely for WWII and in 15mm.

They're still not stopping anyone from buying non-BF miniatures and models. You can buy and use anything and play FoW with them, just don't use them in official FoW tournaments. There is a difference between permitting their use in regular non-tournament games and endorsing/encouraging them by allowing them in official BF-sanctioned FoW tournaments.

BF isn't stopping you from buying/playing with other miniatures. They just want you to use their product in their official tournaments because they want their brand represented in their event. Feel free to use non-BF figures in any other context.

…."Seeing other companies push the envelope is great"….

Not any more apparently!

Feel free to use non-BF figures in any other context.

Oh I will, don't you worry about that, I always have, dating back from before when FOW invented the hobby. (insert sarcastic smilie here…)

Less of it will be sourced from BF in the future. That's their loss & PSC, PP, QRF etc's gain.

I have absolutely no interest in tournaments anyway, which all too often seem to bring out the worst in people.

28mm Fanatik you do realise they are running BF only comps on or close to the same dates as existing independent comps?
Why is that I wonder?
Question is do you want to play in a free hobby or a promotional and marketing event?

It's understandable that they would want their miniatures represented in a tournament that they sponsor but this rule seems a bit excessive. A rule that said you had to have at least some percentage of their models in your forces might be a better move.

When does BF start opening up their own stores? I wonder who they will be next to……

Rasil Bathbone

Basileus – that is after repeatedly saying that they would never do any such thing

They might have been naive in the past. Now they have become to realize that in order to run a successful business you can't go with nice words. While they take the expenses and the risks, other companies benefit from their investment. I have nothing against PSC or any other company, but I can't fathom the scandal about BF's decission either! It looks so logical to me that I can't understand why anyone can be surprised by it.

(Oddly, I am not exactly pro-FoW… I only play the game because my friends around here do. My WWII poison is KGN and in 20mm!)

We are happy for you to use our figures with any rules. ;-)

Geoff
QRF
quickreactionforce.co.uk

Geoff – wonderful.

Now do some WW2 Italians… :)

Now you just need a "Not approved by Battlefront" banner Geoff!

In the last several years since I have been involved in FOW I have seen it grow slowly and have been doing all I can to promote it here. Our club has held events at libraries, stores, game days, etc, etc all over the state. We have been hounding the two local stores to carry it (so far to no avail) although a store about 100 miles away now carries it and has started restocking it. I have overwhelmingly BF but I have bought and traded stuff with other people and at flea markets as well so I have no idea how much is BF and how much isnt. Although some things, like all metal vehicles, are obvious, how do you know with the infantry and guns?

Anyway my suggestion is wouldn't it have been better to say, "we would appreciate the courtesy of your using predominantly (or all) BF models at our events." ?? You could also make the prize support a two tier system. One tier for non-BF stuff and one tier for the BF armies. With prizes handed out accordingly. Sort of like the classes in a sailboat race.

I dont think protectionism will work (or ever has in the long run) and it is certainly going to be a PR disaster.

Now you just need a "Not approved by Battlefront" banner Geoff!

Etranger for the win!

I may save that for next April.

Don't forget the "TM"!

Still, nobody has explained why all the scandal. They would be stupid if spending their money on promoting other's companies miniatures, wouldn't they?

How would Geoff feel if after spending 100,000 GBP of his company earnings organizing tournaments around England, people would show to the events with PSC or BF miniatures but not his? Either he would stop organizing tournies, or he would enforce a policy of QRF minis only in HIS tournaments.

However, you expect that BF behaves differently. I do not understand the double standard.

Besides, the goal of BF is not promote "the Hobby" (that's simple propaganda ) but to generate revenues from its business. When they spend money, they expect a return. So if you want an 'officially sanctioned' tournament circuit, that costs BF thousands of USD to organize, you need to abide by a simple rule of thumb: they will continue doing it, if they earn a return (in cash or sales) for their troubles. Otherwise they will stop -quite naturally- organizing tournaments.

That can be good or bad (I don't give a damm, as I have zero interest in FoW tournaments), but that would be a whole different discussion.

The problem is that by making this announcement BF have moved to a 'corporation' mentality, and WW2 gamers just won't stand for it. GW, TSR (& WoTC) and Mcdonalds got/get away with it because their product is clearly an novel invention with IP rights that no-one can deny them.

BF are trying to play the same card in a mature market already jammed with suppliers of similar rulesets and identical models.

Even if the volte-face that JP hinted at a few hours ago is implemented the backlash from gamers will be felt for years.

It would however be sad if this turns out to be in any way fatal for BF.

(Disclaimer – I don't play FoW, I just buy a few figures now and then)