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"25 pdr Firing Platform?" Topic


12 Posts

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646 hits since 4 Jul 2012
©1994-2013 Bill Armintrout
Comments or corrections?

projectmayhem04 Jul 2012 8:20 a.m. PST

Was the circular platform removable and if so under what cicumstances would it be removed?

I want to model some for the desert and have seen photographs of the gun in action without the platform but this could be the earlier 18/25 pdr?

When did the 25 pdrs with fixed trail reach the western desert? And were there variants with or without the muzzle brake?

Black Bull04 Jul 2012 8:34 a.m. PST

Muzzle brake was introduced in '43 to reduce the damage cause by firing 'supercharge ammo', platform was removable but other than it getting broke or left behind in a quick getaway no reason to remove it.

Personal logo Rrobbyrobot Supporting Member of TMP04 Jul 2012 9:26 a.m. PST

I agree with Black Bull. As to the 18/25 pdr. Wasn't that the 18 pdr with a new carraige? Then type used to give the gun greater elevation and 'high speed' towing capability? A picture of such is on the Jeager Platoon site. I hven't seen a firing platform with it.

JARROVIAN Supporting Member of TMP04 Jul 2012 10:04 a.m. PST

The 18/25 pdr did use the traversing wheel, but it was carried on top of the limber because of the split trail box construction.

JARROVIAN Supporting Member of TMP04 Jul 2012 10:13 a.m. PST

By the way, the traversing platform was carried slung underneath the fixed trail, not in the firing postion. It was not fixed to the platform when firing but made traversing easier just by lifting the trail and moving it left or right. The gun maintained a fixed elevation.

Personal logo Dom Skelton Sponsoring Member of TMP04 Jul 2012 10:50 a.m. PST


As to the 18/25 pdr. Wasn't that the 18 pdr with a new carraige?

No, other way around; it was an 18 pounder carriage and outer barrel sleeve, with a shiny new 25 pounder in the middle.

Personal logo Rrobbyrobot Supporting Member of TMP04 Jul 2012 1:01 p.m. PST

Thanks Dom. I just took the time to check. Seems the Finns got 18 pdrs. that were modified. Still, I was curious about the 18/25 pdr.

Personal logo Mal Wright Supporting Member of TMP Fezian Inactive Member04 Jul 2012 3:55 p.m. PST

18pdr guns developed at the end of WW1 introduced the platform. At that time it was intended for use when the gun was being used in close support of an infantry advance so it could traverse and fire at the numerous bunkers the Germans used in late WW1 defences. However the weapon known as 18pdr fieldgun MkIV on box carriage Mk III wth firing platform, was too late for war service. It was exported to Estonia, Ireland, Latvia and China. British army guns were converted to vehicle tow later.

The MkIV on box carriage MkIII but WITHOUT platform was in use during the last year or two of WW1.

Unlike the "pole trail" of the most common 18pdr field gun Mk 1 on carriage Mk 1 or carriage II the carriage MkIII was a box trail and this was the weapon converted to the 18/25pdr. Indeed the box trail of this gun became the model on which the 25pdr trail was based. The pole trail was abandoned for a box type after the MkII type because it was realised that although quick and easy to pick up and turn, it was not sturdy enough for the prolonged firing typical of WW1. No pole trail 18pdrs were converted to the 18/25pdr. Only Mk III trails. The 18pdr guns used by Indian and Commonwealth forces in the early part of WW2 had the common pole trail. These saw service in the Middle East and North Africa. However as more and more 25pdr guns were supplied to the British army they passed on the 18/25pdrs to Indian and Commonwealth forces.

One has to be careful not to get confused in early North African battles when first the origional 18pdrs were used by those forces, (They usually took them with them) then later the 18/25pdrs passed on by the British. And finally fully fledged 25pdr guns.

Note also that due to the extreme shortage of 25pdrs many of the Commonwealth forces were using motor tow conversions of the WW1 4.5"howitzer. Where this was the case, they were always accompanied by some 18pdrs in the battery because the 4.5" had no anti tank capability at all. But if they had been re-equipped with the 18/25pdr to replace the 4.5" howitzers, the ordinary 18pdrs were returned to depot.

In the between the wars era it was realised during exercises that the platform allowed the gun to be traversed quickly in order to engage tanks. Therefore the idea was carried over to the 25pdr. This enabled the 25pdr to be much more effective in an anti tank role than most field guns.

But certainly all the 18pdr gun types still in service at the time they were converted from horse tow to vehicle tow, were provided with the traversing platfor….including the somewhat rare 18pdr Mk IV on carriage Mk V with a split trail. It was intended this gun would replace all the earlier models, but for financial reasons it did not and besides, there was a glut of almost new or little used 18pdrs.

The use of the gun without the platform could occur if it was deployed in emergency and there was no time to place the weapon on it. Or if the gun was emplaced in a position where it was not expected to be required. Alternatively, it could have been lost or damaged!

The 18/25pdr was still in wide use throughout most of the campaign in Malaya and Burma as was the 4.5" howitzer. It was very late in the war before there were enough 25pdrs to replace all the weapons in the Burma campaign.

In 15mm QRF have a 4.5" howitzer. I made the master for them.

The 3.7" mountain gun modified for truck tow and with a shield similar to the 6pdr anti tank gun was also quite common in North Africa, the Middle East and Burma. especially with Indian troops. That is another master I did for QRF and available from them. Some of these apparently received a traversing platform too, but it was not common.

Leadgend04 Jul 2012 10:26 p.m. PST

A few more points to Mal's info:

The big advantage the box trail has over the pole trail is that firing at higher elevations is possible, thus the late model 18pdr and the 18/25pdr and 25pdr are "gun/howitzers" while the earlier pole trail 18pdrs are true guns.

This was particularly important in the fighting in East Africa where the mountainous terrain restricted the use of the 18pdr and 60pdr guns while the 3.7" howitzer was outranged by the large numbers of 65mm mountain guns used by the Italians.

Note that QRF has two different 4.5" howitzer models and the 3.7" howitzer has two different options of wheels (one for the vehicle towed light battery and one for the animal packed mountain battery).

bsrlee05 Jul 2012 3:51 a.m. PST

My late father was a 'Nine Mile Sniper' in Australia from the Militia pre 1939 through to de-mob 1946. They started out training on pole carriage 18pdrs – their first live shoot everyone was sent to the rear while the gun captain was given a large reel of cord to fire the piece as they didn't know what condition the guns & ammunition was in. At some stage, just before 'The War' they received 18pdrs with split trails (Mk V carriage) which were left behind when they were sent to the Middle East as 2/6 Field Artillery.

In the Middle East they received 25pdr Mk1 guns (no muzzle break, standard carriage), fought the Vichy French in Palestine & Syria, then were sent back to Australia to fight in New Guinea. Part of the 2/6 was detached to support the US troops and received 155mm guns from the US to use while attached.

He ended the war on beach defence duty in Borneo, manning dug in 18pdr's with split trails again.

Personal logo Mal Wright Supporting Member of TMP Fezian Inactive Member07 Jul 2012 3:51 a.m. PST

Note that QRF has two different 4.5" howitzer models and the 3.7" howitzer has two different options of wheels (one for the vehicle towed light battery and one for the animal packed mountain battery).

That was because I produced the 4.5" in its WW1 and WW2 configurations. The same for the 3.7" but of course the animal pack versions served in both world wars.

Personal logo R Mark Davies Supporting Member of TMP07 Jul 2012 4:05 a.m. PST

I do wish they would sell them without crew, so I could add my own crew in bush hats, turbans, shorts, or whatever without having to buy figures I don't need. I much prefer Peter Pig's and Skytrex's policy of selling guns separate to crew, allowing the customer to choose type/make/number of crew figures.

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