"Borodino- Historical cannon Quantity or Not…" Topic

For a convention/tournament play is it best to reduce the number of cannon to present better play…
Or Keep to historic number, add the historic conditions of many undulated terrain, and reduce the ball/beyond canister range effectiveness some amount (along with ammunition supply/fatigue constraints in play)?
My experiences so far have been games that used reduced number ( GMs though it best). It certainly must have changed the dynamics of the game ( too something less than WWI type)and it has presented me only a one sided view (since I have get to experience play with that high of cannon to troop ratio).

What do you all suggest? Does it change it too much?
I plan to do a 200th anniversary pre-Borodino battle and wonder if I should hold to the typical 36 gun /Russian DIV and French Regimental guns.

The two times I've played it, we went with the historical numbers but the Ruasian Artillery Reserve was limited in it's ability to maneuver. It seemed to work fine. The most salient feature to me was the incredibly congested nature of the battlefield. The troop density is truly stunning.

Let's say the Russians fielded 640 cannon [actual numbers vary according to source], and you accept the assumption that a typical piece would occupy a frontage of 15 yards. This would mean that if the Russians deployed every piece they had available to them on the day, they could have occupied a frontage close to 5.5 miles. Obviously this wasn't the case – and in reality, only a portion of the weapons would have been in the front line. In fact a majority, more than 50%, were placed in reserve. It's my understanding that the Russians tended to rotate batteries in and out of the line, ensuring that rates of fire could be maintained, with ample ammunition and fresh crews. How you reflect this on the tabletop is really your call – but there would never have been a situation where every single battery would have been deployed on the field at the same time.

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It also depends on what size figures you use. The larger your figures, the deeper your artillery bases will need to be, and they'll take up disproportionately too much space, and distort the game.

I'd go reduced scale for the same reasons as Ligniere.

Also, your point, about most battlefields not being as flat and terrain empty as gaming tables (restricting fields of fire), is a valid one. Borodino is quite, though gently, hilly with lots of trees.

It's one of the better battlefields to visit,

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if a little pricey if you're staying in Moscow and like good hotels, food, and wine.

In reality every army through the ACW at least rotated batteries in and out of service during a battle for the general purpose of maintaining the rate of fire as Ligniere mentions. This was done because of fouling, crew fatigue, ammunition & barrel heat.

There are probably other reasons too. Wargames almost never represent this within rules. I know of only a couple rules sets that incentivize players holding batteries in reserve. To a limited degree Fire & Fury and Regimental Fire & Fury do this as you could withdraw silenced batteries and replace them with fresh ones but really there is no incentive to leave batteries in reserve because players feel they are better off putting 100% forward to maximize their upfront fire power.

The question of how to realistically model this is to create a reason for maintaining the rate of fire. There is a real world impact to maintaining the rate of artillery fire but there isn't generally a wargaming one.

Cheers,

The Bandit

The Reserve artillery of the two Russian "Armies" that day played relatively little role in the battle, in part due to command structure and related isues – IIRC, that's something like 14 batteries/168 guns.

Having said that, when we run the game in 2 weeks, it will be with all the batteries present, BUT the Artillery reserve will have to enter form off table reserve, so it's likely to be 2-3 moves before they will be in position to fire… see my blog post today on the Russian Artillery.

I was going to bring this up as a Russian aficionado poll. I do although I'm short 2 light btrys (45th and 2nd) then as I've already started the 4th Division have only their 12pdr btry. Also they had a few Position, Light and Horse btrys in reserve. I have 24 btrys and 2 Equipage guns, and before I filled out all these often all but lined them up. Now each Division has reserve and someday will catch up with Army Reserve.

Well Black Powder quite deliberately sets out to reduce the effectiveness of Artillery so we are fielding a historical orbat for our Borodino Megagame – although we have trimmed the range of Horse guns slightly to reduce the 'Panzer' effect!

Thanks for the reply All!
Well now!
It looks like time to paint up more artillery and empty ammo boxes ( and I need to find some for 15s)to be put onto chits for fatigue markers (for mounting firing penalties).
This "House Rule" should make the players think twice about artillery usage for the game… than what they may be use to and thus to the experience…bravo guys!
if anyone has already created a "house Rule" and is willing to share… PM me. I have some ideas as well.

This may be long, I am sorry. But we put some effort into this in our group, so I thought maybe others would be interested. Again, I am sorry to be long-winded – please do not complain against me with the stifling complaint.

Here are some rules we use to try to capture Russian artillery doctrine 1810-1815. We tried to base the concept on how the Russians actually commanded the artillery, and also think of mechanisms that can create the unique results that were seen in the real battles, without forcing them via "dumb Russians" special rules.

-- If the scenario indicates that the Russians have been operationally stationary for 1/2 day or more, then 1/2 of the Russian artillery companies can be (at the Russian player's option) deployed in protected fiieldworks. Longer periods of prior non-movement mean more protective fieldworks.
-- In general, a Russian artillery company can have one of 3 command states : (i) attached to an infantry division (foot) or cavalry brigade (horse) – this state endures thoughout play (ii) included in a combined/reserve battery attached to an artillery or corps/army command stand, or (iii) "isolated". A unit can change between the second and third state during play, as described below.
-- The Russians get an artillery command stand for each general officer of artillery present (these commanded the reserve artillery brigades, and some of the divisional artillery commands, and sometimes were present as staff officers in higher formations)
-- If no artillery generals are present, the Russians get 1 colonel's artillery command stand, but only a maximum of two (or three) artillery companies can be attached to him. We play "three" if the senior colonel present was promoted general before 1816.
-- Russians must deploy the infantry divisions' attached light foot companies near/touching a non-artillery unit of their division.
-- Divisional heavy foot batteries can de deployed with the light foot companies or in combined/reserve batteries.
-- For the companies of reserve artillery brigades, the foot companies can be attached to any infantry division (and then are for the scenario treated as if originally organic to that unit), or to a combined/reserve battery. A maximum of 4 foot artillery companies can be commanded by an infantry division.
-- For the companies of reserve artillery brigades, the horse companies can be attached to any cavalry brigade, or to a combined/reserve battery. A maximum of 2 horse artillery companies can be assigned to a cavalry brigade.
-- The Don Cossack horse batteries are considered reserve artillery companies, but if attached to a cavalry brigade, it must be irregular cavalry. The Guard foot artillery and Guard horse artillery are each considered to have an organic artillery command stand included in he senior unit present. The horse artillery's is a colonel's command stand – no more than 3 total artillery companies can be attached to it.
-- Artillery companies attached to infantry divisions and cavalry brigades cannot be re-assigned during play. They must remain within XXXX inches (~500 meters) from at least one non-artillery unit of their parent formation, unless ordered to withdraw permanently out of play (when they must move as directly as possible off the friendly table edge). They cannot be "dropped' into the status of "isolated" companies (see below for definition) or "pick-up" into combined/reserve batteries. Additional artillery companies cannot be attached to infantry divisions and cavalry brigades during play.
-- The combined/reserve batteries may be of only one artillery company, but generally are larger and must move and fight as a single larger formation (rules should be similar to those for unit integrity for infantry brigades or divisions).
-- An artillery company of a combined/reserve battery may de initially deployed alone or "dropped" later from the combined/reserve battery – but then is an "isolated" company which cannot then move voluntarily, except to receive an order to withdraw off the table. It can change facing normally. Similarly, an artillery company from a combined/reserve battery can be ordered to "go to XXXXX" and then assume the status of an "isolated" company. Similarly, if the command stand to which an artillery company in a combined/reserve battery is attached moves away without the artillery company, or is eliminated, then then the artillery becomes "isolated".
-- During play, an artillery company can be transferred from one combined/reserve battery to another or an "isolated" company can be picked-up, but both of the unit(s) changing attachment and the receiving command must be near/touching and perform no other action for XXXX time (maybe 1/2 hour, or 1 turn).
-- To advance an artillery unit or units closer to the enemy than the original deployment of the Russian forces (to move the artillery in an operationally offensive way, to move beyond the original deployment area of the Russians, etc.), the Russian player must advance them ….
…. for foot companies attached to divisions : with at least one battalion of the division per 1/2 company of artillery (2 battalions per company)
…. for cavalry companies attached to brigades : with at least two squadrons of the brigade per 1/2 company of artillery (regiment of heavy cavalry or 1/2 regiment/"battalion" of light cavalry per company)
…. for companies in combined/reserve batteries : with the command stand to which they are attached
Thus, as long as you are not rules-lawyering to make an operationally offensive movement, you can order a company to move from one combined/reserve battery to go to another corps/artillery command stand so it can be picked up. You can also order it to go someplace, such as to a threated area of the battle line, and then drop into "isolated" status. You can also order it to withdraw off the table.

The Russians freely broke their artillery companies (of 12, or sometimes even 14, pieces) into smaller units. Playing with 1/2-companies might be cumbersome, but more realistic (and these will be more the size of French units). This was especially true for horse companies.

If the Russians deploy in one of the "non-standard" organizations, read brigade/division/corps in context as "avant-/rear- guard", "deatchment", "line", "reserve", etc.

If the overall action is "division-sized" or smaller, and there are no corps/army and no artillery generals present, then use only the 1 colonel's artillery command stand with a (limited) combined/reserve battery ability.

These rules make it rather tempting to just parcel out most/all the artillery to the infantry divisions and cavalry brigades – which the Russians sometimes did. With 3-4 companies (36-48 guns), you can have a pretty "grand" battery with an infantry division. But the guns may be so many as to be cumbersome to move with the infantry, and should be a liability or drain on the command capability of the divisional commander (depending on how your rules handle divisional commnader ratings and capabilities). And they can only operationally advance with their brother infantrymen.

You will see that having (or losing) an artillery general was tactically helpful (or painful). Recall the lamentations about the loss of Kulniev at Borodino – who died leading infantry. Similarly, the actions of Yashvil were important in the battles of the 1st Separate Corps on the north flank. You can do a "Russian Sénarmont" if you want to, but if the command stand is eliminated, your artillery will just stop moving (in an exposed position). The artillery generals were a rather special group for the Russians – Graf Arakcheev's personal protegés. They were quite modern and skillful, but there were few of them. A corps or army commander can also do an "artillery charge", but you risk losing a key commander for all the other forces (which also suffer from command problems while the boss is off with the gunners).

So, the offensive action of the combined/reserve batteries will be mostly limited to general advances of the Russian forces. Also, if you form a nice big combined/reserve battery, and then want to move the relevant corps/army commander, you either have to also move the big battery (causing congestion if moved with the corps/army), or leave the artillery "isolated" and hence essentially immobile until an artillery or corps/army general comes over to pick them up (or until you order them off the table).

Defensively, you can be very flexible, detaching companies from reserves and sending them where you want. But then they just sit, and cannot move even locally with nearby infantry/cavalry units until picked up by a artillery or corps/army general or ordered to withdraw off the table.

We generally play that if you go out of ammuntion, you withdraw the artillery unit off the table. No big deal for an isolated unit or one in a combined/reserve battery : there are plenty of other companies around to take their place. But you can't directly replace the units attached to the infantry divisions and cavalry brigades, a problem if you plan that they will be advancing toward the enemy later.
If you are playing with ammunition replenishment, replenished units could be allowed them return after XXXX hour(s) and report to any combined/reserve battery or back to their original infnatry division or cavalry brigade.

Very thought provoking Seroga, thank you.

For my groups Borodino game, we have to keep things much simpler, in the spirit of the Black Powder rules, to free the player's poor brains to think tactically rather than worry about the rules. Especially since we aim to complete Borodino, with all formations present, in a day!

So the only tweaks we have made, aside from range changes alluded to above, is to introduce a simple house 'Grand Battery' rule, whereby every third battery in base to base contact with the original 2 batteries gets to throw an extra dice on top of its normal value, the effect counted at the smallest calibre. This is designed to encourage the use of massed artillery a la Senarmont, although its use has been conspicious by its absence so far in our practice games….

Yes – it's a little complicated. But most of that is before play, when the Russian player sorts his artillery companies into attached to the infantry/cavalry vs. combined/reserve vs. isolated.
But, we tend to be "history-intensive", somewhat. And rarely (well, almost never) do we even try to complete the really big battles.

I am presently working on logical rules that encourage players to hold batteries out of the firing line and rotate them in. So far it can be broken out like this:

1) the effectiveness of artillery (how many kills it might score) increases gradually as you add guns, how gradually is difficult but basically you don't want to reward the player too much for throwing more guns at the problem or the player will always put all his guns forward to "pay ahead" hoping he does the most possible damage before his guns run low on ammo

2) artillery depletes its ammo, caissons were assigned to batteries and when those caissons ran out the battery rotated off the line and was replaced with a fresh one while it reloaded, when artillery depletes its contribution to effectiveness must drop off, once it runs out of ammo it should automatically pickup and withdraw to reload

3) resupplying artillery has to take long enough that a player wants to have fresh batteries on hand but not so long as to debilitate the player's artillery for the game

Those are the physics laws real corps and artillery commanders faced on the field, it would be really good if war-games implemented them as it would accurately reduce the effectiveness of artillery in concert with what really happened rather than reducing it in arbitrary ways to try to mimic what happened.

Cheers,

The Bandit