"Thinking out loud" Topic

All my adult life, I have been an ardent anti-Nazi. I never could stand their savage brutality, nor their racists stupidities. And yet, when I decided what army to collect for Flames of War, my first thought was a SS Panzergrenadieren Company, just because I like their fancy camouflage uniforms!

Does it make any sense to you that I am willing to wave off the moral disgust they cause me just because I like their uniforms?

No.

Have you looked at the weapons available to them, and considered all the battles they were involved in?

I guess its shows that you haven't actually got the deep held beliefs you thought you had. Unless of course you intend getting them killed every time you play!

Are you going to get women and children and minorities to play the other side?

Ah, my favorite topic!

It means you can differentiate your beliefs from a game, possibly without versing into nazi fetishism or obsession

It may mean as well that because you really know where you stand you can actually be comfortable collecting something that is not without any interest in spite of what it actually stood for and did to humanity.

Where do you stand?

Aaargh this discussion comes again.

I prefer to avoid any SS in my games. Or just a few in the background.

It also is easier to make 28mm wargame displays in public if you've no SS depicted on the gaming table. I have no shame explaining to old people around here that I play with "toy soldiers", but I wouldn't want them to see me playing with toy SS.

"Does it make any sense to you…"
Of course it does. Remember there are lots of armies comparable with the SS-mentality but less recent (= perhaps centuries ago). The Assyrians, the Ottomans, The Mongols to name just a few. IIRC after the famous speech of Pope Urban II to start a crusade (the first) the enthousiastic listeners charged into the Jewish quarters and started to butcher inhabitants.
Nobody ever seems to have problems about collected thóse figures. I have remarked once to have no problem at all with slaughtering my prisoners of war – Phil Barker once said: "There are no tin widows" (unless we decide to paint them, of course ;-)).

my first thought was a SS Panzergrenadieren Company, just because I like their fancy camouflage uniforms!

Just the camo?

No, not a problem for me…

Its not like you have models of Hitler, Goebbels and co on the table – that I would find odious in the extreme.

Soldiers doing what politicians tell them to do? Never been a problem for me…

And yes, in my book 'I was only obeying orders' is a valid defence, and I suspect anyone who doesn't think the same to either be very ignorant of conditions in Nazi germany, or to suffer from a lack of empathy.

There are very few people who can sit in judgement on the vast majority of these soldiers without being a hypocrite, and most of those who earned that right came to a grisly end in July 1944…

The real criminals are the politicians and those who vote for them…Fortunately the bombs employed by the RAF and the 8th Air Force were highly selective, as the Allies in 1945 could find no Germans left who had voted for Hitler and his crowd….

What we regard as acceptable to game will vary from one person to another. Many people refuse to do ultra modern or even twentieth century as it is still too close.

Anyway, I don't have particular problem with fielding SS troops. It is rather difficult to wargame British operations in Normandy and the Netherlands if you dont.

Just the camo?

Yep. I find fascinating to paint them.

There are three uniforms in WWII that I really like to paint: US Paratroopers at Normandy (the combination of khakis is gorgeous), British tanks in the Western Desert (not uniforms, I know, but beautiful combination of colours nonetheless) and German camo (especially, Autumm Leaves combination)

As for the rest I don't care too much. My heart, for WWII units, goes to the Welsh Guards and the Polish division in Normandy. I don't know why, but I am fond of them.

However, when planning to start in FoW I wanted a force that could game both in Eastern and Western Fronts, and Germans are the only ones that fit the bill (I was thinking in the 9th SS, as they fought in Normandy, Arnhem and Ardennes, besides the Russian Front)

Afterwards, I will collect one British Motorised Company and one Polish. May be Yanks too, but those in the long term. Thereafter I plan to go to Early War. I do not plan Western Desert, though, but Italy and Sicily have a certain appeal to me.

Are you going to get women and children and minorities to play the other side?

No… I plan to put them against tough Welshmen guards, though!

Patrice wrote:

I prefer to avoid any SS in my games. Or just a few in the background.

I have done this for many years and currently have no SS figures in my collection.

But I'm beginning to think I may need to get some of the s, they were involved in so many interesting actions around my main area of interest, UK and Canadian troops fighting in Normandy.

I don`t own any SS, or US/British/German Airborne, or any Commandos/Rangers either.

Nothing personal or political or ethical about it, I just don`t enjoy playing elites.

The SS are a must for the opening battles against the allied forces in Normandy.

How can you re-fight arnhem if you dont play SS.

Being an "ardent anti-Nazi" is not exactly a tough moral choice that requires a lot of hand-wringing, or which demonstrates one's ethical rectitude. One is not likely to run the risk of staunch, well-argued opposition.

It's sort of like collecting a Hunnic army for the 5th century, while protesting one's firm stance against slaughter, looting, rape, and slavery.

Silly topic. There is a world of difference between little lead men and the real Germans (and others) who supported Hitler and carried out the crimes.

If you can't get your head around this then I don't really know were to begin.

I was thinking the same thing as Andy. I have no problems playing them in a miniatures game. I would not want to play one in an RPG, which is a much more psychological situation.

I've even played a Fallschirmjager in an RPG. I don't have a problem playing the 'bad guys'.

As others have said, kinda hard to play 'Cowboys and Indians' if nobody wants to play one side.

True, although perhaps there is a difference between having a number of different German/Axis forces along with SS and ONLY having SS troops.

As you say, someone has to be the baddies.

I have WW2 finns in 15mm. In '41 there was a force of SS operating with the German forces in Finland, Kampfgruppe Nord. They show up in my games. Give the Soviets heck.
I also play games based on the German invasion of Yugoslavia. I'm pretty sure there were SS there.
When fighting Germans vs Soviets, Who's the biggest baddie? I mean as to one's own moral outlook, not which one was our ally. Note , I'm an American. I can find plenty of reason to detest both Soviets and WW2 Germans. But not one of my miniatures was there. Nor was I.
Now, Yankees from the War of Northern Agression… ;)

I try not to attach political agendas to my toys. In micro scale I built an SS pzrgren regiment for a specific game we were doing, but didn't get rid of them afterwards. History is too full of barbaric behavior to be selective. If we are going to game something as horrific as war there are no spotless records.

Now people reenacting SS is a different story for me.

Being an "ardent anti-Nazi" is not exactly a tough moral choice that requires a lot of hand-wringing, or which demonstrates one's ethical rectitude

And I intended to demostrate neither of them. Not that I need it either. That was not the intention of my post. Mind that sometimes I find difficult to express my thoughts in English. Anyway… What I inteded was to make a reflexion about how something as banal as a fancy combination of colours can be the impulse that motivates a gamer to collect a force, regardeless of its history, background, ecc.

(Also, in my case, I calculated that a SS Force would be cheaper to collect than other, more masified, armies!)

Little toys don't have any political beliefs, nor do they commit atrocities. I wouldn't worry about it.
-Kle.

(Also, in my case, I calculated that a SS Force would be cheaper to collect than other, more masified, armies!)

Unfortunately, I went with gepanzerte Panzergrenadiers. All those halftracks…

Not so, Klebart. My minis have massacred my defenseless bank account.

It's a freaking game! Playing with or using WWII Germans, be they SS or any other, has nothing to do with whether you support their ideology and mentality.

As above, its a game, they are little metal/plastic toys.
It does not make you a Nazi, or anything else.

I game late WW2, D-Day onwards so having various types of german troops, from normal infantry, to para's, panzer grenadiers and SS units is a given.

As long as you are not "gaming" the SS wiping out civilians or prisoners then they are just another unit with fancier uniforms.

All those halftracks…

Four words: The Plastic Soldier Company.

People who can't differentiate simulating mock battles with toy soldiers and actually endorsing what some of these toy soldiers 'did' or 'believed in' in history have always baffled me.

@Basileus: Sadly, PSC did not exist when I made that army. Now I need to go back through and get everyone in 251/1Cs instead of the mixed Cs and Ds. Should do command decision this time, for the command/radio HTs.

Such topics always go wild.

Yes of course, you can play any sort of baddies in a miniature wargame, I have no problem with that.

Just don't try to find any good reason for it: such arguments always get loose.

If we begin to talk about it, someone says that a poor SS guy was not always a bad guy – this is true enough. Then someone else says that many SS were not bad – probably also true. Then it will continue and we'll end up with someone understanding that we would be happy if some SS-lovers come again in modern politics.

I've also had the same discussion about the ACW a few times, we begin with the fact that many Confederate soldiers did not own any slaves – this is true; then after a few exchanges a "logical" conclusion is that the ACW was not about slavery at all.

Play with toy soldiers and don't try to justify it.

Unless you knowingly purchase your SS troops from the Aryan Brotherhood, and therefore the revenue goes to support a hate filled, violent agenda, I think you shouldn't even consider it strange.
They had great equipment and uniforms, they were part of the era you are gaming. Between the wow factor as "artists" and the historical accuracy, I find it stranger that someone would have a blanket policy against using them in wargames. But then again I don't live in Europe, so maybe things are different there ?

I have WW2 finns in 15mm. In '41 there was a force of SS operating with the German forces in Finland, Kampfgruppe Nord. They show up in my games. Give the Soviets heck.

I can't imagine why they "give the Soviets heck." SS Nord in 1941 was a very poor unit, thrown together at the last minute and sent to the front. Their entire weapons training consisted of getting to shoot their rifles out the train windows on their way to Finland. They broke and ran several times during the battle for Salla and were mostly used in support roles after that. In short, they kinda sucked.

Just being SS doesn't make a unit elite, especially early in the war!

"Just being SS doesn't make a unit elite, especially early in the war!"

Or late in the war!

There were only ever really six decent (from a combat value pov, as opposed to moral stance) SS divisions, even 9th,10th and 17th were at best 'average'. Most of the rest ranged from poor to abysmal.

Though the SS are certainly a particularly dispicable example, there are many other armies throughout history who also have less than pleasant records in terms of 'human rights'.
If we are to exclude all these armies / regiments / tribes / warbands from our games, I doubt we'd be able to fight any wargames at all?
Though I do accept the fact that the SS were active 'relatively' recently adds another complication – I would never want to offend or insult an elderly WW2 veteran, for example.

I will take a crack at this.
I am 1/2 Western Urkrainian 1/4 Russian 1/4 Jewish. I was born in Russia. First of all I am American and view myself as American first.
The Russian communists killed millions of my people (Ukrainians) during the 1930's in Holodomor.
Almost all of my Jewish family was killed by the nazi's and some were saved by Romanians. My great grandfather was made a cripple during the battle of Kerch in 42 thanks to stalins idiotic orders, he was one of the lucky few to make it across. Actually he didn't artillery or the luftwaffe got him on the boat (I assume), some nurse thought that he was alive and fished him out of the water when he was floating up ashore with a lot of corpses. I have a 15mm soviet force. You hate the nazis? Do what I do educate people about the terrible things that were committed by them during WW2. Put together an SS force leave out the swastica, if people are willing to listen tell them about WW2.

History itself is a neutral subject. As the old saying says….History just goes on and on.

I am repulsed by what many countries did in war, not just WW2, but many wars. But they are part of history. In some cases they are the reason the history we read about happened.

So I collect them and I view them as historical representations of the arimes concerned. I just dont glorify them.

I cant do anything about the past so I save my powder for present day nasty people!

By saying History itself is a neutral subject, what I mean is that to the people on each side….they ARE the good guys and the other side ARE the bad guys. The view point of which is which is up to individual perception. That is human nature and something which we are wargamers cant do anything about.
Sometimes soldiers decide they are the bad guys side and will desert. We are currently seeing that in Syria. But even though they have made that decision, the people they left behind will believe they went over to 'the bad guys' and will still continue to believe their side is right.

Its best to forget the politics of history and just get on with the wargame!

I think a lot of us would want criminal soldiers such as many of the Waffen SS were to be bad soldiers. It would be so appropriate.

The reality is they weren't. Wicked, yes, valiant soldiers, also yes.

"savage brutality, nor their racists stupidities."
Well, that rules out every single army before 1700 and most of them afterwards.
I'm planning a Viking force for Saga, does that mean I condone burning monasteries, raping the nuns and taking the gold? Or that I should think about the moral decision I make in painting that force?