"Boiling oil? really?" Topic

Was boiling oil really dropped on medieval besiegers as they tried to storm castles? Or is this a yth? And not, what hot substance(s) was dropped/poured, if anything?

AFAIK it's a myth/exagerration. Oil was a valuable substance in the middle ages, it's unlikely that people would have had gallons of the stuff lying around and less likely they'd want to, essentially, pour it away. Boiling water was still an effective weapon, as was heated sand.

I seem to remember a story about dropping boiling lead.
Again, I am not sure it that was a myth or real…

OTOH, you have Greek fire and the use of pitch / other combustibles documented historically, even if not as widely depicted in Hollywood.

Tallow? Privy contents (though boiling that might not be necessary)?

Aww, come on! Of course they had gallons of the stuff lying about ready to be heated and poured on the un-suspecting assault troops of the besiegers! I saw it in a film which I am certain depicted accurate defense precautions of the day!

Greek Fire and naphtha were both expensive flaming missiles, not just poured from a wall. But they do not show up in European sieges to my recollection….

…hmmm…flaming salsa….

Boiling water would hurt!

Just said medieval, not European.

link

For nearly 600 years, from the battles of the early fourteenth century to the dropping of the atomic bomb at Hiroshima, firearms derived from gunpowder and other chemicals defined the frightful extent of war. The apparatus and materials used in World War I would have been familiar to our remote ancestors. In this classic work, first published in 1960, James Riddick Partington provides a worldwide survey of the evolution of incendiary devices, Greek fire, and gunpowder.</p><p>Greek fire, a composition Partington believes was made of a distilled petroleum fraction and other ingredients (but not saltpetre), was most famously used in the sieges of Constantinople and the Crusades

link

link

Greek Fire and the siege of Constantinople

It was used on one occasion then as a defensive weapon for a ship arriving with grain. The Turks who attempted to intercept it were beaten off using Greek fire. It was also used against siege towers. We are told a German named Johannes Grant, directed the fire. He sprayed Greek fire on to an enormous siege machine…. It continues

Greek fire was also used when the Ottoman soldiers stormed the walls. Fire was poured down on the unfortunate souls climbing up, and we are given a nightmare picture of the soldiers falling into the moat screaming with pain. (very sad)

The Fall of Constantinople; The Ottoman Conquest of Byzantium by D. Nicolle, J. Haldon and S. Turnbull page 152 Osprey Pub- 2007

link

pg 198 and others in link

As far as I know Greek fire was not used by anyone else but Byzantium. And a fairly closely guarded secret, at that, but not a myth.

I dare say boiling oil was both cheaper and used more often.

Didn't some folks pour hot sand?

The bad guys are trying to climb your castle walls to subject your family home to rape, pillage and extensive physical damage….

Do you really think the cost of oil would be taken into account?

Pour it on the bastards and set 'em alight! Can always tax the serfs some more later.

Animal fats, waxes, tar, pitch, etc. Sure, I think it was all done.

Hot sand was used in the Crusades. I suspect that boiling oil, burning bales of straw and other incendiaries were all used many times as weapons of opportunity.

Siege warfare was nasty. There are several incidents where the attackers threw rotting bodies of animals and heads of casualties into cities to spread panic and disease.

As James says "The bad guys are trying to climb your castle walls to subject your family home to rape, pillage and extensive physical damage." There are numerous reports of horrible atrocities when the attackers won (rape, torture, murder, pillage slavery).

The cost of losing was high so defenders would have used everything that they could think of.

Depends on the geographical area.

I always suspected that the "boiling oil" legend was a bad translation for Greek fire: the word "oleum" (oil) could mean natural … petroleum.

There certainly was not large ammounts of olive oil in North-West Europe in the Middle Age: you need olive trees.

I would say: boiling water. Or brine, in a castle they would have a reserve of salt to preserve food, and boiling brine would certainly be very nasty.

Baconfat: Didn't some folks pour hot sand?

Josephus in The Jewish War describes the defenders pouring super-heated sand on the Romans during the siege of Jerusalem. That tactic could have been used anywhere the defenders had a lot of sand, a pot to heat it in and wood to build a fire. Like the sling was a favored weapon, anywhere there were lots of stones.

There is an account of boiling oil being used against the Romans at the siege of Jotapata. So it isn't totally mythical. However, you can heat up just about anything to the point that it will ruin a besieger's day, so I suspect that water or sand would be more commonly used, since they are much cheaper. On the other hand boiling oils were more commonly used than boiling gold. :-)

Another issue worth considering is that a common feature of many medieval sieges was an extended attempt to starve out the defenders, in order to make them surrender.

Vegetable oil or animal fat was valuable for its nutritious content, fat having roughly twice the energy value as carbohydrates for a given amount of weight. Granted, medieval people would not have known the exact nutritional values, but they probably knew enough to acknowledge the fat as nutritionally valuable (not to mention tasty). Besides for food, oil and fat were also used for various other purposes, such as for greasing leathers or cartwheels.

Thus, if you were expecting to face a long siege, it might not be wise waste oil by pouring it lightly. Or if you had already endured a long siege, you might have already consumed all of the oil (not to mention that supplies of firewood might also be limited, especially since wood could also be needed to repair damaged defences).

In drier climates or seasons, also the water supplies might become a problem over a long siege. Thus pouring your limited water supplies on the attackers might not always be that bright idea, either.

Wikipedia knows all:
link

Wikipedia knows all

Wikipedia only knows what people write into it, and they write what they believe.

In 1000 years in the future, people who will look at this pic could also think that in the 20th and 21st century we put "oil" (= olive oil???) in our cars engines:

Yes, and backed up with some solid footnotes in many cases, including this article.

In 1000 years in the future, people who will look at this pic could also think that in the 20th and 21st century we put "oil" (= olive oil???) in our cars engines:

With all the development in bio diesel fuels based on vegetable oils and such, they might not end up being completely wrong.

Surely they'd want to hang on to as much water as possible -urine on the other hand…

Flaming urine?

Ouch…

They have medicine for that.

The smell of boiling urine might not be the most enjoyable experience out there. Though beats having it poured all over you.

As for hot sand, how well does that actually get through the clothes and to the skin? Hot water is quite simple since it soaks to the clothing. Finely ground dust would easily get to all sorts of places in small amounts, but enough to cause significant burns? That said, finely ground dry dust, thrown down from the walls, might produce a dust of cloud that could seriously irritate eyes and lungs, even if not heated, thus confusing the attackers and giving the defenders some more time.

In any case, I think that for practical purposes it would be easier to chuck down rocks than mess around with the boiling liquids. The later needs time, work and firewood to prepare, not to mention needing to be careful not to pour any of the hot liquid on yourself by accident. That said, the psychological effect of the hot liquid on the attackers can be more scary (especially when their precious armour offers little in the ay of protection).

Griefbringer: As for hot sand, how well does that actually get through the clothes and to the skin?

Josephus says that the hot sand flowed right under the Romans' armor and 'consumed' the victims, burning them severely.

The irony of someone calling himself "baconfat" posting on this thread amuses me. :D

Pigfat was used to undermine castle walls (one built a tunnel under the walls, then sent in some pigs – or vessels of pig fat – and set light to them. The fat burnt fiercely and would bring down the tunnel supports – and the walls above would collapse with them – as demonstrated quite well in the movie "Ironclad"). Who knows, boiling pig fat could well have been used to pour on attackers scaling the walls too. :)

So I'd say yes, "boiling oil" was indeed used, in various forms. It just wasn't the "black gold" variety.

As for how effective the hot sand has to be, it only has to be effective enough to make the guy climbing a scaling ladder freak out and accidentally fall off. I almost always manage to almost fall off the ladder ever time I get on one, and that is without hot sand falling on me.

As for how effective the hot sand has to be, it only has to be effective enough to make the guy climbing a scaling ladder freak out

That is a good point.

However, that does not help with defending the gate against battering rams and such.