"Using Marian/Caesarian Romans as Republican Romans " Topic

I have many ancient and medieval armies and most have very specific figures to represent special units in them. However, one army that can be used for more than one period is the Marian Roman. I use mine to represent the entire republican period from the invasion of Pyrrhus to the civil wars after Casear's death. Even tohugh there is good evidence for the use of simple armor (or none) (particularly for the hastatii) and the three long helmet plumes for both hastatii and principes. There is also eveidence for the single crest of horsehair in the period. My legions are made up of Old Glory 15s and by using Marian Romans and adding velites and Triarii I can have the bulk of most Republican Roman armies for the price of one. Also, Old Glory makes Roman Allies in mail and pilum with a slightly different plume arrangement that can add interesting variety to your legions. Is this a common idea?

Personally I would not employ this tactic, however I would certainly not object to an opponent turning up with some Marian Romans and stating he was using them as Republicans.

As long as we were both clear what each unit represented, then it would be cool with me.

Raglan

An interesting idea- there is no way that I can afford to have 4 different Roman armies. I bought some Foundry Late Romans and some Foundry EIR way back when they were actually affordable.

I don't really fancy the fancy headwear of the Republican Romans. I might be tempted by some cheap good quality Marians (I am thinking of the recent plastics shown at Salute).

Cheers

James

I love Mid Republican through late Republican armies and battles. Like you, I wasn't about to paint up MMR and then do it again for the LRRs. Instead, I run my MRRs in both eras. This is common in our ancients club. Paint up one Roman army, port it through time. No complaints.

More time to paint the enemies of Rome!

I do the same thing w/ my Romans.

I'm in a similar vein. I have a Caesarian/EIR army. I can model the transition period with this easily.

I also have no problem using the Marian/Caesarian Republican troops as earlier Republican armies. Hamata & oval scutum, and there you are. Of course, I do add Velites and Triari, but the Principes and Hastati are the Marian/Caesarian minis.

Someday, when I have more time and money, I'll likely paint up some proper troops, but for now, it is what it is.

I should add that I also have one "Celtic" army. I either add chariots or cavalry, and a few odds and ends to make it "Britons" or "Celts" or "Gauls" or "Germans" depending upon the scenario.

I find the best way to imagine the Romans is

early republic – three tall feathers in the helmet – conquest of Italy (a chance they can lose)

mid republic – a floppy white crest – hannibal and conquest of greece (a good chance they can lose)

late republic – a plain helmet – conquest of Gaul and Civil Wars (pretty much certain to win)

Empire / Principate – square shields, probably lorica – owners of the world (and no challenging opponents)

Late empire – funny looking and likely to be trampled by cavalry armies

in outline, that works for buying most figures, i find.

I do a different Roman army for each of 5 eras; Polybian, Marian/Caesarian, EIR, MIR and LIR, so far. Downside is the time and money involved and I would only really consider 2 of them to have reached an adequate size. I don't really mix the periods, except that I might use Early Imperials with Middle Imperials, or vice versa, on account of the similar rectangular shields and vaguely similar helmets..

That is not that I have a problem using troops representing ohter troops, I've done it many times…

Cheers, Simon

Keraunos wrote:
late republic – a plain helmet – conquest of Gaul and Civil Wars (pretty much certain to win)
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Late Republican legionaries (as led by Caesar & Pompey) had crests on their helmets – Caesar mentions not having time to fix them when taken by surprise.
Late Republican legionaries are basically identical looks-wise with Punic War Principes. Rounded-end shields with floppy horsehair plumes, mail armour, gladius and pila.
You might want to add some guys with bronze chest plates and tall feathers as Hastati and/or allied Latin legions.
But frankly I'd be quite happy using Caesarians as Punic War guts; just add some Triarii and Velites.

I have Romans in 3 periods Republic , Marian and EIR.I do not mix any,of course I do have lots of Romans! Mike

I absolutely do this, and it wouldn't bother me in the least to see it on the table. I think gamers get too caught up in preconceived notions of "exactly" how Republican Romans would look compared to Marian Romans, entirely based on what they are used to seeing from figure lines. I'm convinced that while a Republican Roman infantryman would "generally" look like what we expect (based on figure lines, limited historical evidence), there would be considerable variation. In the end….it just doesn't bother me that the only difference in my armies is plumes vs. feathers.

the point I was making was

if you use these guys for the Early Republic

link

and these guys for the mid republic

link

and these guys for the later republic

link

and these guys for imperial rome

link

no one is even going to ask 'which is that', because its a shorthand which every gamer will accept.

you can, of course, get all ultra detailed and finickety about it, you can have your imperial romans in mail, and crests on your marians and what not
but its a bit like having all your Napoleonics wearing brown and grey great-coats.

sooner or later someone is going to ask 'who exactly are those guys again?'

I once saw a GM using Roman Imperial Troops for a Mid Repbulic battle at the convention. I busted his chops over it and he went out and purchased about 400 plastic ones to replace what he was using. Most who played in the game had no idea but I still have to give Phil a hard time.
VR
James Mattes

What nobody seems to have mentioned is that 'Marian Roman' (a wargaming specific period)IS Republican Roman…

Sorry to be a pedant…

What about the article in WI of a few issues back where they used EIR Figures for a big game set in the 400s AD – now that is taking the michael!

I'm reminded of a show where the best display game featured not only vehicles which were well out of scale with the terrain, but also, was supposedly 1941 and had all the soviets with T34-85's.

I don't recall whether they actually played the game as well or not.

I think in practice, given the paucity of evidence, Marian/Late Republic legionaries – ie mail and oval shield, as in Altar of Domitius Ahenobarbus – should be acceptable from Post-Camillan to Early Imperial, if one isn't too fussy about helmet style. Polybius is very specific on the three-feather crest and single greave in his era, but I can't think of any archaeological or monumental corroboration of this.

I got into this whole ancient lark in order to have a army of Foundry Caesareans so I'll happily use them for the earlier period -with suitable spear blokes and velites.
Not sure about mixing 15 and 28mm though in the same army :)

Ancient cultures didn't throw stuff away the same way we do. Marian armour and helmets would have been re-used by auxiliaries or re-worked to suit the current fashion.