"Operational level miniature wargames?" Topic

What I mean is, are there any wargames out there that cover the sort of scale and terrain that one would mostly associate with a board game? For instance, a game map that covers a hundred square miles (I mean 10x10 miles) or something a little bigger, so that a game would cover several days or weeks of campaigning? I was kicking around some interesting ideas that the thread on hex-based wargame boards had got me thinking about. My diea is not hex based though, as, for as far as wargames are concerned, I am in the "against" category when it comes to that. At least for now. Maybe some day I'll come around.

Still, my question stands- has anyone ever done a miniature game system that allows for days or weeks of campaigning to be represented? I wonder if you couldn't just recreate a board game, larger?

If your talking strategic movement like maybe Risk or War and Peace? Whats the ground scale in AOE, GA and NB? They are brigade level games and quite of few of my board games are brigade level.

Brigade level isn't really what I had in mind. For instance, you can do Borodino or Wagram with those, but I'm talking more like an invasion of Prussia, that is, an entire campaign. I'm kicking around an idea how to do this using a stylized map, on which the units would be divisions and would move on roads between towns or other geographical features. The roads would have a distance assocaiteed with them, a number like 1-5, which would represent 1-5 5 mile segments that a unit would have to march along to move from one point to another. The map wouldn't have to neccesarily be to scale. It's just an idea…trying to think outside the box and such. It's just that I'm getting tired of the same old battles/set-ups you always see.

I'm thinking something like Grande Brigade level, if that makes sense. Like 2x2 Napoleonics on a 4x4 foot board. That'd give you about 16km a side on a 4 foot table, and you could still show everything.

If you wanted to go bigger picture it might be neccesary to go up to the division and drop arty.

Le Grande Guerre. Each unit is a division. Sam Mustafa wrote them, and I enjoy them.

I play at 30mm square, not 3" square so 9cm = 1 mile. A average 6x4 table is a massive battleground.

Nice simple rules too.

Also, Very campaign friendly.

10 miles x 10 miles isn't a very big campaign area!

Operational games seem more to be the province of twentieth century warfare, and we've played/run loads of those including multi-day battles and entire wars in some cases.

Most large scale nineteenth century rules I've come across outside of campaign systems are more aimed at fighting big battles.

I am not sure whether you are looking for a set of rules to fight such a large wargame, or a map to do it on?

I have been running an 1813 campaign for two years which covers all of Germany, Spain and Portugal. This is fought in a series of mini campaigns, each of which cover the sort of area you refer to.

The current campaign covers an area 60 miles east to west and 45 miles north to south, but it could easily be extended.

It has a grid system, similar to an ordnance survey map, with each square being 5 miles. My wargames table is made up of 2x2 foot squares, and each wargames square is one map square. My wargames table is 6 x 6 foot.

When two corps come within one square on the campaign map I set up the wargames table with that square in the centre.

This allows map movement on terrain which looks exactly like the wargames table, and the table can be extended in any direction if the flow of battle moves from the original contact point.

Not sure if this is what you are looking for, but if it is have a look at my campaign blog where you will find all of the maps plus the current order of battle:

1813geracampaign.blogspot.com

I pitched my Between the Wars Wars games in this scale. Each player commands an army so it's kind of like those big-scale maps you see in the books with Army boundaries etc. I don't bother with subsidiary units, but each stand of 4 infantrymen would represent a force of a company or so. The stands are 2" by 2." Victory in the game is how far you penetrate across the table top (long ways). The defender sets up within a foot or so of one edge and the attacker comes on from that edge. If the attacker can get across one of the objective lines (initial, halfway-- intermediate 3/4-- final off the other edge) that's the scale of Victory. If he makes it through the table top off the other edge he has scored a critical breakthrough and all sorts of wonderfull things happen in the back-up campaign. Note, the game uses large hexes, and is 10 hexes across the long way. MOST units move only 1 or 2 hexes (infantry, heavy weapons, artillery) and tanks, cavalry etc move 2 or 3, trucks four. So you have to hustle against the defender. What you are always seeking in the game is therefore to make a local breakthrough and hold the flanks of this open while you race a column of fast tanks and truck borne infantry hell bent for leather for the other edge. The defender is then toast unless of course HE has a reserve to set up a blocking position behind.

We've fought several campaigns with this and it works well.

How you would do this on the same scale in other periods I do not know. It works above in modern times with the idea of the "continuous front."

I've always liked this scale, and the idea of using miniatures on a pretty map, rather than on terrain. I've been tinkering with an idea for a WW2 game at this grand-grand scale.

But I find that I'm in a rather small minority. The majority of gamers prefer more tactical stuff, probably because it's prettier (terrain and figures interact more), and more literal (one tank is one tank, etc.)

I'd suggest adapting the Generalship Game from Paddy Griffith's Napoleonic Wargaming For Fun, which has point to point movement, simple rules for sieges and the ability to personalise the way the generals spend their days.
Recently republished in John Curry's History of Wargasming Project.

I agree with "A Special Loathing for Cherubs" – this is an interesting scale and perspective, but not one that would likely ever be appealing to miniatures gamers in a way that would be commercially viable for publication. We (Piquet) have a WW2 set aimed at a higher scale (the smallest unit is a company) than most games. Maneuver elements are battalions, battles are usually multiple divisions on the table. While its sold well, its never going to fit most gamer's perceptions of what they expect. Gamers want tactics, small unit tactics, rivet counting, and especially for WW2 – a skirmish game. I personally don't like that scale, but it is the predominant one.

I'd suggest you take a stroll through the Wargames Developments web site: link

They may not have something specific to your question but you might find something useful, as I have. They tend to think outside the box of traditional wargaming.

Panzer Korps plays like that. A game covers weeks of battle and you can link games into a campaign. You can even have several parallel games going that all interlink if you really want to.

I am not sure what historical period you are thinking of setting you operational-level wargame in.

If you are thinking of mid 20th century, then Megablitz might be the answer.

link

I've always liked this scale, and the idea of using miniatures on a pretty map, rather than on terrain. I've been tinkering with an idea for a WW2 game at this grand-grand scale.

But I find that I'm in a rather small minority. The majority of gamers prefer more tactical stuff, probably because it's prettier (terrain and figures interact more), and more literal (one tank is one tank, etc.)

I'm with you on this Sam.

Years ago we did the entire Marget Garden campaign with micro armor and infantry at a game convention and I got a very favorable response.

I woulds love to see a set of rules to re-fight Kursk, The Bulge and D-Day. I used to love the original PANZER GENERAL computer game and would have loved a miniature version of it.

While I just can't get into Flames of War, I would snag a set of rules that I could play large battles in a heartbeat and buy lots of tanks and men!

The idea of pushing tank models across a massive map with croupier sticks has always fascinated me ever since I saw "Battle of the Bulge" with the German High Command pushing model tanks across a map of the theater of operations. I wanted to do a game like this for a long time.

If you ever pursue this seriously Sam, count me in your play test group as I'll do this long before FOW.

Kim

"I woulds love to see a set of rules to re-fight Kursk,"

Err, we did that already. Well, only the northern flank, but it was the entire northern flank.

Megablitz.

link

But there are plenty of other contenders. I did the whole of Operation Bagration using a variant of KISS Rommel.

As I said, twentieth century warfare is well catred for with operational games, but the nineteenth isn't. There is a very good map game included with 'Wars of Empire II:To the Last Gaiter Button' covering the Imperial phase of the Franco-Prussian which would translate well for Napoleonics and it is tightly integrated withe battle system but you can resolve many of the battles wihtoth using the tabletop game.