John the OFM | 06 May 2012 3:07 p.m. PST |
I am just about ready to grant a flag to Hessian infantry Regiment von Donop. I have the Flags for the Lads set, and was curious to see that it does not have the barred lion, common to most Hessian regiments. Instead, it has this design, which is ay Kewl: link Why the difference? Whose arms are those? |
PKay Inc | 06 May 2012 4:10 p.m. PST |
I'd check it against Warflag. |
John the OFM | 06 May 2012 4:55 p.m. PST |
Warflag has the barred lion. To be honest, that is what I would have done. I am curious how the reenactors and Flags for the Lads came up with that pattern. |
John the OFM | 06 May 2012 5:19 p.m. PST |
Interestingly enough, the von Donop site has links to some waterclors done immediately after the war. The plate for the von Donop regiment itself does not show a flag, but has the interesting comment "Regiments Fahne was entirely buff-colored with the usual center and corners." link That deepens the "mystery". |
PKay Inc | 06 May 2012 7:21 p.m. PST |
I gotta give it to you OFM
you're a good sport! :) |
JonFreitag | 06 May 2012 7:28 p.m. PST |
Steven W. Hill's work showing the reconstruction of Hessian colors depicts von Donop as having the barred lion on buff for both liebfahne and kompaniefahnen. link |
DisasterWargamer | 06 May 2012 7:56 p.m. PST |
I wonder if there is some confusion based on two different hessian regiments being led by a Donop at different times. Inf. Regt von Donop was led by Donop in 1764 (killed at Red Bank NJ I believe) and in 1784 was led by a Knyphausen Inf. Regt von Knyphausen was led by a second Donop in 1784 Source – kriegsarmaturen.com Probably doesnt help you – but found it curious as I was checking back over some information. |
GR C17 | 06 May 2012 8:03 p.m. PST |
link I think these are the guys who have that flag in your picture. I've re-enacted next to these guys for 20+ years. I'm sure they would be happy to share if you ask. |
John the OFM | 06 May 2012 8:41 p.m. PST |
Probably doesnt help you
But it sure confuses me more! |
John the OFM | 06 May 2012 8:45 p.m. PST |
Flags for the Lads gives the white Fahne I link to. Then, they give 2 second colors with yellow background. Then, they give a 4th color, but with yellow field and blue "flames" to the corners. All 4 have those arms, rather than the barred lion. FftL freely admit that they are covering all the bases when contradictory conjectures are around. |
Camcleod | 06 May 2012 9:25 p.m. PST |
OFM The flag you link to is similar to a speculative 7YW flag used by the Hessian Garde : link |
Cardinal Hawkwood | 07 May 2012 2:57 a.m. PST |
The leibfahn would have a white , the ordinar fahn would have the buff(straw) field |
John the OFM | 07 May 2012 8:20 a.m. PST |
Interesting, then. So, the flag I link to is a throwback to the SYW. Would those be the arms of the Landgrave of Hess? Ahah! link Pretty close. So, it seems that I should graciously grant von Donop the first and second colors that I mention above. |
95thRegt | 07 May 2012 7:35 p.m. PST |
Where Sulentic? He's actually IN the recreated von Donop. Bob |
John the OFM | 07 May 2012 8:20 p.m. PST |
Yes, I've been waiting to hear from him too. |
RNSulentic | 10 May 2012 12:41 p.m. PST |
OH NO. Don't use that flag. Please. Just don't. The story is too long and sordid, and involves reenactor politcs. You don't want know. Trust me on this. |
RNSulentic | 10 May 2012 12:51 p.m. PST |
All Hessian battalions had 5 colors; one Leibfahne, (or Colonel's color) and 4 regiments fahne (or company colors)--the grenadier company didn't have a color. The Leibfahne was white. The regiments varied by regiment. Several are up at our website. von Donop's was buff with the usual design bits. (The peppermint lion in the middle, the crown cyphers in the corners) Of course there is an exception, and Rall's land-grenadier regiment had colors, because (short version) they were just another field regiment with funny hats. |
John the OFM | 10 May 2012 6:46 p.m. PST |
You mean
Warflag is ACCURATE??? Oh, dear. |
RNSulentic | 10 May 2012 7:24 p.m. PST |
Well, kinda. The flag they have for von Donop is wrong with the blue saltire. |
Minenfeld | 11 May 2012 3:15 a.m. PST |
Were all the Leibfahnes white for all the Hessian regiments RNSulentic ? |
RNSulentic | 11 May 2012 8:02 p.m. PST |
As far as the information I've seen, yes. They were white. |
Minenfeld | 12 May 2012 3:54 a.m. PST |
Thanks for that Sulentic. |
Camcleod | 12 May 2012 4:45 p.m. PST |
Is this article accurate ?? link It gives Donop's Leibfahne as buff & the Regtl. as buff with light blue corner flames. |
RNSulentic | 12 May 2012 9:02 p.m. PST |
I don't particularly trust the tone of it. There are at least two sets of water colors I know of that he doesn't mention. Both show von Donop with entirely buff regiments fahne. And one set I've seen shows Rall with a red and blue flag, not green and white. Something that isn't addressed in consideration in the bits of the Trenton color that still exist is the degree of fading in the material. Who knows what color it was originally. But, paint your figures how you want. Their yours, after all. |
Louis Maeve de Malet | 03 Jul 2012 10:45 a.m. PST |
A history of the colours in the photo: In 1997, members of several re-enactment units were invited to participate in the first ever "Zeitreise durch die Geschichte" at Schloss Fasanerie. Units represented were von Donop, von Lossberg, and (if I recall correctly) von Knyphausen. As "commander" of the expedition I commissioned one of our people to paint new colours that would represent the converged group. For the princely cypher in the corners, we used a crowned "ML" rather than "FL", in honour of the current prince, HRH Landgraf Moritz von Hessen. HRH has been very favourably disposed towards re-enacting and has graciously supported an 18th century event at Schloss Fasanerie every year since 1997. During this first "Zeitreise" there was a televised ceremony, during which HRH hammered the last nails into the colours staff. The coat of arms represents the full arms of Hessen-Kassel. It is not, therefore, our historical colours, which is why we do not carry it in the field. It is set up only in camp, with the thought that it represents all Hessians with no particfular prejudice in favour of any of the individual units. Historically, ALL of the Leibfahne of all of the regiments were white, as per the 1784 Darmstadter Handschrift edited by Georg Ortenburg. According to the same source, the Compagniefahne of von Donop were buff with blue corners. |
spontoon | 08 Jul 2012 8:35 a.m. PST |
The Hessian and Brunswick flags of the SYW and AWI are a minefield! I'd just use what appeals to you. |
Karl von Hessen | 10 Jul 2012 2:33 p.m. PST |
John, did you ever get my PM
the gifts I sent you
.just wondering? |