"60 to 1 or 20 to 1?" Topic

I was getting a feeling of inadequacy today thinking of my 60 to 1 Armies compared to others who have gone the 20 to 1 route. I mean the stands look great in two ranks and give the better impression of large Napoleonic battles and since I started 60 to 1, changed to 20 to 1 and then changed all back to 60 to 1 (also the largest doubling of my figures) I wonder where I would have wound up had I not changed.

30 to 1 ?

Base 2 x 2 and it makes no difference ? Just add and subtract stands ?

I guess it depends how much of your life you want to spend painting figures. My brother and I were playing multi-corps games at 120 to 1. Depends what you want to recreate and how mch you want to paint.

I use an abstract system – generally 4 bases per battalion. So 24 figures works out at about 1:30.

Having used 1:50 or 1:60 it just doesnt look right to me.

My buddy and I talk about this. He is a 28mm nut and loves to paint Naps for 1:20. His stuff looks great and he can pump them out too. I am a 1/72 nut and love smaller scales too. I tend to paint up a wide variety of eras when not working on stuff for my customers. I am also doing Naps but in 1/72 (my main focus for Naps), 6mm and some 28mm to play in games with him. However, you couldn't pay me to do 1:20. I just don't get it. I admire the spectacle. But no chance would I do it. I'm with 79th PA. I like doing Corps and larger games. Common sense for me is that I could NEVER EVER stick with 28mm Naps long enough to paint up a 1000 or more troops. No way. That's probably why I don't get the whole General de Brigade thing. Yeah it looks very cool! I admit it. I just don't know why they didn't make it 1:30 using 21-24 fig units. The spectacle is still pretty impressive. Personally, I think they'd have drawn in more players at the 1:30. But who knows.

Thanks,

John

100:1 for me. Like 79thPA above, entire historical battles are possible on the table top with one to one unit organization. No representation battles where one tabletop unit represents several battalions or larger formations. I don't have to spend a lifetime painting entire armies, especially if you commonly paint/play in completely different periods (ancients, dark ages, TYW/ECW, WSS/SYW, Napoleonics, ACW and WWII).
Smaller battles (at divisional or smaller organization), I would go the 20 to 60:1 path if I had the time…. but at 100:1 the napoleonic game goes quick.

An interesting topic, and one that has been at the back of my mind for the past couple of years.

All my units (both 28mm and 15mm) started life as 1:50 for WRG 1685-1845 which did seem a bit on the small side, but I now play with a group who use 1:40 which seems to me to provide a nice balance between being able to field armies with enough variety and representative units, but without the table being overly cluttered.

I'd rather play a game with a larger number of typically 16-20 figure units, than with a smaller number of 24-32 figure battalions.

I can certainly understand the attraction of 1:20 in terms of aesthetics though.

Different strokes…

Me, I figure the reason to wargame with figures, as opposed to maps and counters, is the look of the thing, so I go for 1:20. That way I see a unit that I can identify with as an Infantry Bn, Cav Regt, etc. What the late great Peter Gilder referred to as playing in the 'Grand Manner'.

OK, so its expensive and time consuming. Well, so were the wars we are recreating!

And isn't it better to have the occasional, cost and time intensive game that took ages to organise, that you will never forget in your lifetime, rather than several ant small time games that look like an Italian flag tossing contest – 12 figures and 2 flags trying to represent an infantry Bn of 500-100 men…

Whereas, to me, its not to much of a stretch to imagine these gallant 42 chaps as an infantry battalion…

Thats not to say you have to have a lot of figures to have fun. But at least make your unit, or units, look realistic, then convince half a dozen others to do the same…things will develop a momentum of their own once you have something inspirational to look at…

This for instance was a Prussian Bde of 3 Line Infantry Bn's, a Jaeger unit, and a couple of Cav Regts that faced off against a similar French force for a very memorable evening's ecounter game with just one mate – no more than a dozen units on table – but because of the figure scale, totally engrossing and played with a sense of occasion…

i am back trying to play Napoleonics or any wargaming for that matter after 16 years away. The old days were played with Empire and 12 figure battalions in 15mm.

The 1:30 of 24 figure battalions for the French and their allies looks so much better. I guess even the 1:20 looks great too. I am starting with the 1:30 to get playing on the table then I can add the extras for those games and groups that go the 1:20 scale.

Sparker, you said it very well. This is why I collect Napoleonics in 1:20 figure ratio.

BTW, I have eighteen thousand 10mm figures on the go for someone at the moment. His Napoleonic infantry battalions have over a hundred men each!

He also does WW2. His blog is over here

link

Thanks Sparker, that was an excellent and inspiring post

Well said that man !

Of course you could go the dense-pack 6mm route. Use 28mm basing and then slam 6mm figures on them. You can get 9 to 12 x 6mm figures in a 28mm's space. So a battalion gets 200+ figures and the ratio is a rather awe inspiring 1:2

Hey Sparker that IS impressive! I agree completely about the aesthetics. However, I'm curious as to how many periods-genres you game in? Is this how you do all your periods? I probably have and am working-collecting well over a 100 armies/forces. For me to do as you did would mean I'd have to trim about half or more of those.

Thanks,

John

I started wargame life with Quarrie's 30:1 ratio. For about the past 5 years I'm hooked on General de Brigade at 20:1. The rule set, visiting Peter Gilder's center in the 80s, and playing some games at 20:1 afterwards finally convinced me to switch over. A lot of rebasing, and quite a few command stands were sold off. The number of units typically shrunk by a third.

Its the look and the fun I have with the rules. Plain and simple. And I'd never criticize another gamers choice of era, rules, scales, etc.

Thanks Guys.

Hi John, well for once I take my own advice! By that I mean that I do dabble in ACW and Ancients, being inspired to by fun fast play rules like Black Powder and Hail Caesar.

But as I said above, you don't need to go overboard, I just have, quite literally, 2 ACW units, each of 24 figs, and one Roman Auxiliary, again of 24 figs. But by the time you factor in everyone else's handful of units, and the shop armies, that can amount to an impressive game…I think in this time of cheap hard plastic units, its not unreasonable to ask all your club members to raise one unit for a new project…and doing it at 1:20 makes it a worthwhile thing to have in your display cabinet anyway….

Yes 6mm and 10mm can look very impressive, particularly when attention is paid to the terrain as in your mate's case! That does challenge my point about playing with maps and counters, I must admit. And I will never forget Siborne's Waterloo Dioraman at the National Army Museum.

But I can't seem to generate the same attachment to those tiny figures that I have with my 28millers….No logic really!

When it comes down to it even 42 figs look nothing like a Bn, in fact nothing like a Coy of 120 men. I make no bones that my 28 figs look like a bde, in the same way that my 3 tanks are a Sqn, or that 500 yards looks like a couple of inches.

At the larger scale I have played loads of superb games over the years, big battles with a few players or multi players on a manageable sized table.

Nice photos above, but I would rather be play a large battle than a little bit of one or a skirmish.

That saying the evil Perry Twins, Victrix, front Rank amongst others have forced me to muster 28mm figs for an 1809 campaign. 32 and 48 fig bns, now looking for a set of rules!

One question for playing a bit of a battle, do folks factor in what may be occuring on the flanks off table?

Tally Ho!

+1 Sparker

1:20 all the way now. Tried 1:60 when I was a poor student, worked, but didn't have the same feel.

This is a Corps -

A Division -

Cavalry Division

Cheers

Ironlegs
10mmnapoleonics.blogspot.com

1:30 for me, but infantry based in single rows.

I once did a study of average Napoleonic unit field strengths versus possible wargame figure ratios. I like stands to represent companies (or cavalry half squadrons) and concluded that the basings of 1:15, 1:30 and 1:60 gave better fits than those on 1:20, 1:40 or 1:50.

A long time ago I used the 1971 WRG rules (now a very battered red book) with their "flinch factors" and a 1:15 ratio. I was a member of the Farnborough (Hampshire) wargames club at the time and a number of us changed the ratio to 1:30 to make it more manageable. I have stuck with that ever since, but did re-base to put my British (and some of their allies) on frontages half as wide again as continental infantry (ie for my 1:72 plastic figures – 15mm per British figure and 10mm per French).

Rod

1:20 Looks best at 28mm scale; 'come big or stay home'

It boils down to what you want to represent and what looks right to you. I hate to say it, as I have always been a proponent of 25mm plus figs, but I see a lot of benefit to Naps in smaller scales, especially 6mm.

I started at 1:33 with Quarrie, the ratio works with GdeB rules, so I will stick with that.

Standard Btns are 24 figs, French / Russians, Brits between 20 and 30, "Austrians" up to 42. 12 to 20 figs per Regiment big enough to look good, small enough to be affordable.

All figures based in singl lines, none of these skirmish bases for me thanks.

The only changes my group have made since changing rule sets is We now use one model gun for each pair of "real" guns, and we have had to paint dozens of officers as brigade commanders.

If I was to change to a smaller scale (15, 10 or 6 mm) I would go for a higher figure ratio, at least 1:20 for 15mm, but as I am old and my sight is failing, I will stich to the bigger figs thanks

rabbit

Well said Sparker and others.
28mm and 20:1 is the way to go. 20:1 allows a realistic view of a unit in line and its associated difficulty of manoevering it. 28mm allows for that detail that makes most units little vignettes, -which smaller scales don't have- which makes them things of beauty or wargaming eye candy as some would say.

Well said Sparker, IronDuke596 and others.

I've seen some spectacular 15mm games but for me, Napoleonics with 28mm figures at 1:20 has always been gaming in the Major Leagues. YMMV.

Actually, I use 1:40 (roughly)in 28mm scale – a French Infantry unit has 18 figures, six stands of three figures each. I go to 1:60 (12 figure battalions) for big games.

In addition to the cost and painting fatigue with 1:20 in 28mm, the units take up a very large amount of space on the tabletop.

Ultimately, of course, all that really matters is what works best for the individual!

Interesting thread.

For me I prefer 1:33 in 15mm, the key issue being the ground scale that results, assuming a 1 unit = 1 battln scale. The bigger scales, either men per figure or figure scale, reduce the amount of battlefield you can get on the table, which is particularly important for refighting historical actions. In most battles there was more open space than we see in a lot of wargames. The link shows my current project based around the assault on Fort Mulgrave, Toulon, December 1793.

caseshotpublishing.com/blog

Regards

Garry Wills

I think the photos have showed what I am talking about. But I guess it's what you're going after, and for me large battles (multiple corps battles) always were the goal.

It's all a question of imagination.

Hi Nick!

When it comes down to it even 42 figs look nothing like a Bn, in fact nothing like a Coy of 120 men.

Agreed, however surely its less of a challenge to the imagination than 12 figures?

Nice photos above, but I would rather be play a large battle than a little bit of one or a skirmish.

Well, sometimes a little bit of one is all you need – take Salamanca 1812 for example – do you really need to do anything other than cover the 3rd and 5th Divisions activities to get a flavour for what happened?

But even if not, I'm sure a chap with your background could inspire a team to do a large battle as a project…We are doing Borodino in 28mm, in a day, with every historical division represented by a Brigade, using stripped down Black Powder rules…

That saying the evil Perry Twins, Victrix, front Rank amongst others have forced me to muster 28mm figs for an 1809 campaign. 32 and 48 fig bns, now looking for a set of rules!

Sounds great. I hope you have the 'Thunder on the Danube' trilogy? Lots of minor brigade level actions with maps in there for some 28mm fun! As for rules, if you have done your research and don't mind a tool bag approach I think you might enjoy Black Powder….

One question for playing a bit of a battle, do folks factor in what may be occuring on the flanks off table?

Yes, one way is to have a magnetic white board representing the table within the entire battle set up on an easel, with Magnetic symbols representing formations held in reserve or about to come on the flank of the table, so that both teams and umpire can see what's what…

'come big or stay home'

Classic!
Of course, on the other extreme, alot of board gamers think a small cardboard square with an x on it loks just right as a brigade.
1/33 for me. Cost storage painting time and wish to build that Quarrie army I couldn't afford back when I bought his book. 24 looks just right to me but that may be because my tabie is 6 by 4 max or because I came from 12's.

Sparks,

to me it is a game not a diorama! Sometimes I may get out me old 432 periscope if playing WWII, but more to check line of sight than anything else.

I will stick to my 15s and Napoleons Battles for large battles, however:

The Thunder trilogy is good, I started with Scott Bowdens book Armies on the Danube my early inspiration. For next year a couple of us are embarking on an 1809 project 32 and 48 Bns, currently I have 10 Bavarian, 4 Hesse/Baden and 20 French Inf done, and between us 26 Boxes of Victrix Austrians and a few large Bns of Perry Hungarians!

The flanks question always intrigues, as if playing a portion of a battle it might make one think a little if there is a chance the enemy could suddenly appear on a flank!

Tally Ho!

Gonsalvo wrote:

Actually, I use 1:40 (roughly)in 28mm scale – a French Infantry unit has 18 figures

That means that your 18 figures represent a French battlion of 720 men.

I use 18 figures for a French battalion as well, but mine are at 1:30 ratio. I did a study of average French battalion sizes and came up with:

Aspern-Essling – 563
Wagram – 575
Oporto – 410
Talavera – 580
Albuera – 466
Fuentes de Onoro – 502
Salamanca – 568
Vittoria – 530
Waterloo – 476 (although 1 & 2 Corps only would be 520)

This averages 520 per French Battalion.

Rod

I started at 1/33 quarrie, then went to 1/50 empire then in 1995 went to 1/20 with Grand manner and have kept building ever since
some of my figs and Games

Light Cavalry brigade

Heavy cavalry Division

My mate Brushmonkey is doing Waterloo at 1/20 his first Perry Infantry Corps, last year

his blog
labellealliance.blogspot.com.au

heaps more on My Napoleonic Blog, were you will see Sparker, unlucky General, Brush Monkey, RCT75001 and me and a few extra lads who are "Grand Scale gamers!
link

cheers
Matt

We use 16 men units. (And our rules have one unit is a regiment of 2 bataillons, so 1/80).

I like the look of your big units, but i dont think our games look less like a battle.

Just an observation. Almost every pic of these very large unit games shows edge to edge unit deployment. Is that a function of wanting to get all those units on the tabletop? Is the price for playing these large games a sacrifice of having no open flanks (except perhaps at the Wargames Holiday center)? All the GdB games I ever saw using 28mm suffered from the same issue. Lovely and impressive looking games! But never an open flank to maneuver on.

Thanks,

John

nickinsomerset,

Your 1809 campaign of 32 and 48 btlns is that in 15/18mm figures? I also have a French/Bavarian force. I am at 1:30 scale so 24 figure btlns in 15/18mm. I have 15 Bavarian units and about the same in French. Now have to get them finished and off the workbench.

Fred,

no 28mm, my 15mm stuff is all based at 100:1!

Tally Ho!

Hi Matt,

Great pics and blog!

If you are still putting together armies for Borodino in September, I have lots of Russians, the Saxon heavy cav bde (although only 18 of each Regt) and French.

Hope you go for GdeBde, I think its a bit faster moving than ITGM…

Wow we are certianly being treated to some attractive wargames goodness on this thread! Please keep it up.

nick so you use 15mm for large battles and have 28mm for smaller skirmishes

I decided to go the 30:1 route so basically 24 figure battalions (larger battalions would be around 30 figures or 5 bases), 4 bases with 6 figures per base, ranked up in a 3 x 2.

Looks better than 60:1 and is cheaper than going 20:1 which would mean having to build 36 figure battalions.

Though it would be easy to field the units at this scale because all I would need to do is go from 4 bases to 6 bases per normal battalion.

Plus putting the figures into two ranks give a more massed ranks appearance plus shortens up the frontage so that you can play bigger battles.

I am doing the same going 1:30 for now an then slowly add on to get to 1:20 with my Bavarians and French

I guess this puts me somewhere around 1:10… since I can get 10 AB figures per 2" wide FoW medium base and have 4 bases per unit, plus skirmishers.

Fred, yes all on my 12 x 6 table. My 28mm project is new and I am still looking for a set of rules, possibly Lasalle. Not so much skirmish games with about 30-40 Inf "Units" per side,

Tally Ho!

DID 1:30 when we did Empire ..long ago…Played with RSM 20mm figs but that was back before there was fire. Getting back in to playing so will go back to 28mm and 1:30..will be looking for a group in North central Florida soon..Green Cove/ Keystone heights area so if anyone knows anyone there please fell free to drop a line.

I get down there twice a year from VA. My daughter is at FSU, go Seminoles. I had to say it, I write enough checks to them.

33:1 is fine by me, once my Austrian battalions hit 30 figs I'm happy with the look

And I think there should be a Universal Soldier:Figure Ratio, or at lesat a Universal Frontage, so that I don't have to keep on rebasing/repainting every time a new rulseet supersedes the old one.