"Russian Colour Parties" Topic
11 Posts
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Artilleryman | 27 Apr 2012 11:52 a.m. PST |
Not what colour of vodka did they prefer but how was the colour party in a Russian infantry battalion in 1812 made up? Was it a group of staunch grenadiers? Or representatives from each company? Or selected NCOs? Anyone know the answer? |
Sparker | 27 Apr 2012 4:48 p.m. PST |
I have no idea so look forward to the collective's response. One trap for the unwary into which I fell, however, the colour of the actual poles was very important and varied by inspection, anything from bright yellow, through straw, brown to black. Just my 2 cents
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Seroga | 27 Apr 2012 7:22 p.m. PST |
For battalions per the decree of 10 October 1810 (O.S.) and later
1st Shef's and 3rd Commander's Grenadier, Fusilier or Muskeeter battalions would from in 8 platoons : (from right to left) Grenadier Platoon, 1. Center Platoon, 2. Center Platoon, 3. Center Platoon, 4. Center Platoon, 5. Center Platoon, 6. Center Platoon, Marksmen Platoon. The Center Platoons (and the battalion itself) would be termed Grenadier in the Life-Grenadier regiment, Fusilier in Grenadier regiments and Musketeer in Infantry regiments. Between the 3. and 4. Center Platoons (both when deployed and when in a column of platoons) would be the Banner Group, formed as follows: SSUPUSS SSXXXSS SSUPUSS S = grenadier, fusilier or musketeer : 3 chosen men from each company in the battalion U = under-officer (corporal) : 1 chosen man from each company in the battalion P = podpraporshchik ("warrant officer" or perhaps "master sergeant" **) with the flag : 2 chosen from among the 4 in the battalion X = empty placeholder 2nd Replacement Fusilier or Muskeeter battalions, if taking the field apart from the "active" battalions of the regiment, would form in 6 platoons : as above, but without the Grenadier and Marksmen platoons. They did carry flags, in a Banner Group, as per the diagram above. Combined Grenadier battalions (formed from the combining of Grenadier companies of 2nd battalions of regiments in the same division) would form in 6 platoons : (from right to left) Grenadier Platoon from jäger regiment, Grenadier Platoon from senior heavy regiment, Grenadier Platoon from junior heavy regiment, Marksmen Platoon from junior heavy regiment, Marksmen Platoon from senior heavy regiment, Marksmen Platoon from jäger regiment. Although they did not carry flags into the field, the still formed a Banner Group (presumably to defend the battalion commander) as per the diagram above, placed between the two platoons from the junior heavy regiment. Jäger battalions, which carried no flag in the field, did still form a Banner Group, but without the two ranks of chosen soldiers marked "S" in the diagram above. Their Center Platoons were called, naturally, Jäger. ** There is some question about the role of these ranks in the Russian infantry in 1812. Previously, these had been often young nobles aspiring to officer rank in addition to long-serivce NCO's who were literate. Indeed, the rank in the Jägers was called "yunker" until at least 1811. However, from 1812 (where we begin to see reference to "podpraporshchik" in jäger regiments), it appears to me that the young noble officer candidates were increasing being granted the next highest rank and that the podpraporshchik would be usually an older NCO. ==================================== "Inspections" was a system of higher organization that had been replaced by "divisions" and "corps" by 1812. Woodwork (including flag poles), by order of seniority in a division, for heavy infantry : yellow, black, white, yellow, and black for up to five regiments in a division. Garrison infantry had coffee-colored. However see also Note 42 : zaotlichiye.net63.net/allfacings.html Jägers had black woodwork. |
Artilleryman | 28 Apr 2012 3:36 a.m. PST |
Seroga, excellent. Thanks very much. I had the detail about flag pole (and drumstick) colours but the other information is gold dust. |
Ligniere | 28 Apr 2012 5:11 a.m. PST |
Seroga, Excellent information – For those of us who might want to position the flags stacked as opposed to side-by-side, in the Shef's 1st battalion, was the 'white' or the 'colored' flag in the front rank? Thanks in advance npm |
Beeker | 28 Apr 2012 6:41 a.m. PST |
Another question related to the 3rd rank flag.. I recall years ago reading somewhere.. perhaps here.. that the 3rd rank flag had a role as a rally point. Wondering if anyone here can confirm that and if so does anyone have any idea how this would be done in reality? Did the banner party divide during an assault (with the third rank banner staying put) / or was the 3rd rank banner marched back in preparation for an impending order to withdrawal for example? Cheers! B |
Seroga | 28 Apr 2012 8:19 a.m. PST |
@Ligniere & @Beeker Well, I am not sure. I cannot (yet?) find a regulation or decree giving the answer explicitly. However, the two mid-19th century paintings I found that show clearly the Banner Group have only a "colored" flag, and both of these were showing an attack. Here's another from 1912 (General Raevskiy atacking with his young sons at Saltanovka): upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e3/Raevsky_saltanovka.jpg I think they would want to protect the "white" flag a bit more, so putting her in the third rank and holding back the 3rd rank flag as rally point makes sense to me. We can also note that as of the Armistice in 1813, the Guard infantry were told to reduce their use of flags (while in foreign lands) to 1 colored per battalion, and to send the others back. This was extended to the Army infantry in April 1814. And these decrees might have easily post-dated actual practice. I will keep my eyes open, and see if I can come up with actual answers. I am sorry I don't immediately have the info you need, and can only give an opinion. |
Beagle | 21 Oct 2021 4:40 p.m. PST |
Anyone know if Russian division, corps and army commanders had personal standards or any other way to display their position on the battlefield? The image of Reynolds arriving at the front line at Gettysburg in the movie springs immediately to mind… |
SHaT1984 | 21 Oct 2021 9:15 p.m. PST |
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Michman | 03 Feb 2022 3:19 a.m. PST |
Russian Army (and Guard) brigade, division, corps and army commanders had no personal standards. Irregular forces (Cossack/Native) might have had "Host" or "Ataman's" regalia that might be taken into the field with the Ataman or equivalent. Examples …. Ataman Platov with a "значок" / "small ensign" granted in October 1803. The painting, was done from life, possibly during the armistice in 1813, by Vasily Andreevich Tropinin (1776-1857). Note 1-2 more banners rolled up on the drum in the lower right of the painting.
The Torguts and Derbets (Saratov and Astrakhan Kalmyks) used their ancient Dzungarian "tugi"- in the Oirat-Kalmyk and Mongolian languages "tug" means banner), brought by them from Dzungaria and stored in temples. From the descriptions of the commander of the 2nd Astrakhan Kalmyk regiment, prince Serebdzhab Tyumen, it follows that they depicted the military spirits holy to the Torguts and Derbets. The first banner depicts a rider on a white horse "Daichin-Tengri" of the Torguts – the holy warrior, the patron of war and warriors, an assistant in battles and victories. In the hand of the holy horseman is a shaft from a banner on which "tarni" are inscribed – Kalmyk prayers. The end of the shaft is decorated with a golden ball and a trident. The rider's face is beautiful and completely calm, the whole figure expresses complete calm, not the slightest military enthusiasm, a symbol of fearlessness and self-control in moments of danger. The rider is without a sword, and the arrows rest in his quivers. The other depicts Okon-Tengri, the patron spirit of the Derbets. This is the complete opposite of the first – a symbol of destruction and merciless revenge. He is also depicted on a white horse, in his right hand a huge sword and a dagger at the saddle, the horse is harnessed by snakes. The rider's path is a river of blood, and lightning flashes all around. These two banners, which were destroyed by the Bolsheviks during the civil war, were photographed and described with the permission of the princes of Tyumen in 1912 by the Russian historian and ethnographer G.I. Prozritelev, who included the pictures in his book "Военное прошлое наших калмык. Ставропольский калмыцкий полк и астраханские полки в Отечественную войну 1812 года", published in 1912 in Stavropol. PDF link
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just joe | 30 Apr 2022 11:32 a.m. PST |
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