"Grey Knights - Too Easy?" Topic

From Bigred at Bell of Lost Souls:

…it felt like I was playing an army with training wheels. And that is why I think Grey Knights are a SERIOUS problem with the game. This game should not have Easy Buttons. When I play other armies I feel challenged, and feel as if I have to adapt and overcome each codex's weaknesses and emphasize its strengths, while doing the inverse with my opponent… With Grey Knights, you just hope to roll well.

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But some people like to be spoon-fed and have everything handed to them on a silver platter. Grey Knights is an easy army that's perfect for them.

Though I'm not sure that they are 'unbeatable.' GK's are small armies and you can overwhelm them with the number of shots you can throw at them.

When I worked for GW, GKs did make a good starter army. Really low model count and a pretty easy tactics wise. It really was a GW Easy Button.

You do realize Bell of Lost Souls is populated by some of the biggest power gaming over competitive types you'll ever see, so they're take is always from an optimized tournament mindset and how they can abuse things so they can win. Not everyone thinks that way so while GK's can by done so they sweep games rather easily and are a win button, there are some really fluffy lists you can do that are fun to play and play against. It's rather easy to do, instead of just taking what seems to be the best take what an "actual" comander whould have. Use the odd stuff and spread out the options and think about if you'd want to play against the army as you build it.

They are tough, no question. However, they are far from unbeatable. I've won against them with Blood Angels, 'Nids (one of the supposed underdogs in the game) and Orks.

@Editor – Bill, I dabble in 40K (shock and horror) and if you want the best tactical view of any army then avoid BOLS with the very high proportion of WAC, go to 40konline.com for a more mature analysis of the armies. Many of the best players frequent 40konline.

And what basileus66 said! They can be beaten.

The thing about GK is that fluff wize they really should only be there to fight chaos. In the prevoius GTK codex they had a great big list of explinations as to why the highly elite deamon hunters would be used to fight all the factions much more mundanee forces could be used for.

Personally, considering the background fluff, I'd of thought GK should be a small add on forces that imperial forces, facing chaos, could have rather than armies of their own.

I'm not too concerned about how unbalanced Grey Knights are. The new edition of 40K isn't far off now, and I expect to see some correction in game balance, as there was with the new version of WHFB.

I played against Grey Knights last week with Orks. 1500 points, and some admittedly lucky dice.

Were they a challenge to kill? Yes. I never managed to score more than a glancing hit on the Land Raiders. Between crew shaken and very bad difficult terrain rolls on the part of the machine spirit, I hung on.

I managed to eek out a win because their low model count and low troops unit count kept them from claiming objectives.

I'll grant you that both myself and my opponent made serious mistakes (mostly forgetting to make certain rolls on rules we hadn't used before).

Thus far (and this may change…) I'd say that if you're already playing with armies that demand some melta weapons be used, you can play against Grey Knights and have fun.

They hit when they shoot, and often wound. They have power weapons in close combat. If you can't make a list that gives them a run for their money based on "the best units in your codex", try using some of the sub-optimal units in your codex… They may just confuse your opponent to the point where they make a mistake.

I always like to random select elements. Keeps the game interesting and fun.

try using some of the sub-optimal units in your codex… They may just confuse your opponent to the point where they make a mistake.

time to start getting tons of those snap-tite Guardsmen and begin building myself a couple of conscript units then I guess. ;)

I'd like to see a measly squad of a few terminators stand up to 50 men who are amazingly expendable.

Grey Knights aren't all that OP to me, they just seem to excel vs most power armor armies which just about 'erybody plays now.

try using some of the sub-optimal units in your codex…

If only the game wasn't so expensive!

it's not like the game is geared up for any real tactics anyway – start 2ft apart, be able to shoot and or charge each other first turn in some cases, no room for vehicles to move etc. Some armies are for the beginners – Marines, chaos marines, IG etc, even tyrranids to a degree.

I know it's sacrilege, and I know that I've got figures purchased over a decade ago, and I'm picking the low hanging fruit…

but…

Thus far
Deathskull lootas have stood in for tankbustas
burna boys have stood in for commandos
a fantasy ork shaman has stood in for a Warphead
regular genestealers have stood in for ymgarls
Termigants have stood in for Hormogaunts
Carnifexen have stood in for Tervigons
SST Tanker Bugs have stood in for Tyrannofexen

I'm currently muddling through the concept of how to get 60 proper looking gretchin for less than the cost of 90 regular ork boys… I'll let you know if I come up with something. Something about the hordes of night-goblins with spears really doesn't mesh.

Granted, this is all easy Xenos stuff. There's not a lot of "standing in" you can do for tau unless you own gundam models in the right scale. Eldar are right out!

If you are playing WYSIWYG, and there's no quarter for proxying (probably due to someone substituting a box of KFC chicken strips as a Land Raider, and then claiming "no fairsies" when he's booted for leaking honey mustard sauce on the table), then none of this can help you. This doubly can't help you if you're playing with Grey Knights and don't already have a cache of blade wielding femme-fatales, apes with guns, and run-of-the-mill marines that can stand in as henchmen from your fantasy amazons/pulp future/pile of vanilla marines collection.

There has to be a way to make these non-optimal units playable without breaking the bank.

I have just become aware of my "Uber-Rambling Status"… Too… Much… Momentum…

I've played and bought a lot of Collectable Card Game materials. This includes the popular ones with a secondary market and big tournament prize support (Magic), and ones that died under the oppressive errors of bad sorting and packing or game balance (Shadowrun and BSG).

There is a tremendous difference in how these games are played based on your ability to flatten the "rarity curve". If you just buy a booster box of cards, you will get more than 4 of each common, 2 of 3 of each uncommon, and, if you're lucky, 1 of ~most~ of the rare cards, and even fewer of the super-ultra-double-rare rare cards. You'd be doing this kind of thing on the manufacturer's terms… buying booster packs, or maybe buying singles from the card shop.

Compare this to a dead CCG where you can get a full play-set of every card, and build any deck you want for a low low cost (BSG or CyberPunk are great examples of this).
You are now bottom-feeding on stock that you're nearly being paid to remove from inventory.

Once you have 4 of every card (or in WH40K's case, a full sized unit of anything in the codex), you can ~really~ play the game. You can try out combinations, discover for yourself what matches your playstyle and what doesn't. Of course, nobody wants to put a miniatures manufacturer out of business just so they can afford to play the game… so how do you handle it?

Tournament card players proxy in practice all the time before they build their force. Is there any reason why recreational players can't do this? Is there any reason why recreational miniatures players can't do this?

I guess there's a lot more at stake "visually" when your opponent makes an odd choice for proxies. I know that plunking down my 3rd edition terminators and declaring "They've got force halberds!" would and probably should get me the stinkeye… but I hate to have a game that I can't "unlock" because I don't spend the money to have the right pieces.

Okay, that's the stream of consciousness. I have to go practice shouting at people about their proximity to my lawn.

Easy? How about 'cheesy'…?

40K has wrapped itself up in an uber-competitive culture: even if the rules were better (IMHO), and the prices reasonable, I would not play in the mainstream 'FLGS' scene… Of course, GW encourages this competitive model as it helps to drive sales. No thanks.

As I recall, there was a post a little while back on TMP indicating that at some 40K tournament, something like over half of all the armies were GreyKnights. This speaks volumes on the percieved effectivness of that force and the ideology of the players…

Granted, this is all easy Xenos stuff. There's not a lot of "standing in" you can do for tau unless you own gundam models in the right scale

There's Zandris IV and Infinity for Crisis suits. Both in metal and cheaper than GW and Forge World respectively…

Second hand AT43 is now dirt cheap too. The power-suited monkeys make vehicles that are fairly close in appearance.

If you are artistic enough, there's always plasticard… I recently started churning out Broadside railguns made from sprue… :)))