"gotte my copy of Pike and Shotte" Topic

ok. I have spent a few minutes reading this.

'Fiercesome' is the only spelling error I have found so far. lovely photos and pictures, one or two of the pictures you will have seen before – 15 lists – Imperialist and French (for Pavia) Tudor English, Tudor Irish, Imperial, Swedish, Polish and Ottoman for 30 years war and 17th century generally, Royalist, Early Parliamentary, New Model, Covenanter and Montrose for the ECW and Grand Alliance and French for the end of the century.

I like the hedgehog rule, which allows up to 2 units to join a nearby pike block and fight as one. It's done on a test like evading in HC, fail and they are caught in the open, succeed and the cavalry get the choice to stop short. I think maybe pike are overtough against horse = double attacks against charging horse if not disordered and a fat extra bonus = but will see.

The combat result table is the same i think, but there are additional bonuses for cavalry charging non-pike foot, pike against cavalry and more, and i have spotted enough differences to explain the need for a separate book.

40+ special rules (Lots of these to allow flavour to different armies – for example 'bad war' which is when Landsnechts fight other Landsnechts – reroll h-to-h misses, 'caracole' which prevents cavalry counterchaging cavalry, and its counterpart 'galloper' which obliges countercharges, sweeping advances etc – both of these may well go in the bin in my games as i reckon (like trotter and galloper from WAB ECW) they will make cavalry far too predictable – loads more to read up on. Many of the special rules will be familair to BP Players, others may well be the same rules with different names – too early to confirm that yet.

Clarity failure #1 (Fans of these rules will be used to clarity failures, haters will laugh and point) – skirmishers cannot give closing fire. Dragoons are skirmishers (indeed in most ECW atmies, the only skirmishers). Dragoons CAN give closing fire, and if given the rule that allows is can give closing fire and evade …… even though it says in the rules for them that all the usual penalties for skirmishers apply to dragoons….. ah me!

Back to reading. By the way, my wife just found out she is Oliver Cromwell's Grandaughter 11 times removed by way of his youngest daughter Frances. "Darling, it's only appropriate you celebrate your discovery with the purchase of a NMA Army…."

Pat

Lovely Pat. Thanks for sharing? Any Tudor Scots list included? I NEED to game Flodden!

So two lists for 50 years of the Italian Wars, and five lists for the backwater that was the ECW? Not a great start.

Anything on basing and/or unit structure? Command and control?

I'm curious about pike and shot units. Are they one unit of mixed pike and shot or three (or more) units of pike and shot that act together? The former I hope.

five lists for the backwater that was the ECW

Not surprising when you consider the amount of ECW buffs working at the Warlord (or the number of ECW products they have out).

Seperate units for pike and for shot, which you may group together as you wish. The 'hedgehog' rule means if you group two sleeves of shot within 6 inches of a unit of pike they may group together as a reaction to a charge, in which case they fight as one unit.

I prefer my pike/shot together as well, but i can see this might work. I will have to play a few games.

So two lists for 50 years of the Italian Wars, and five lists for the backwater that was the ECW? Not a great start.

It's not a backwater where I come from! I can think of twenty ECW players of personal aquaint, and not one Fan of the Italian Wars. More to the point this is 'Black Powder' we are talking about, and they provide a method for calculating points values for troop-types in the back as usual. A halfwit child can compose a list for any period in ten minutes – I did.

In light of my wife's genealogical discovery, my three daughters are no longer Lucy, Emilia and Aurelia – they are Chastity, Mercy and Shuttheheckup.

No Tudor Scots list sorry, they get a blurb, but no Actual list.

Pat

Urban Dictionary definition for "fiercesome":
link

well whadya know?

That's Horsesome! (really impressive Cavalry -oooh I invented a word!)

Urban Dictionary definition for "halfwit":
link

Don't get me wrong, I have the armies, read the books and game the period. But for the era covered by the rules, it is a historical backwater.
The best military forces produced by the antagonists of the ECW, barely held its own the one time deployed into Europe, and then only with the assistance of some large ships firing on its opponents flanks.
As Griefbringer points out, it fits the commercial mould of the publisher. And from the perspective of someone wanting to get an understanding of what the rules represent, without buying them, a bias like that in the lists could be misleading.

Of course the ECW is only a small part of the Pike and Shot era, but it looms large in the English speaking world as far as wargamers are concerned and these armies and battles provide a lingua Franca of the period for many. There again calling it a backwater is akin to calling the ACW only an irrelevant fratricidal sideshow of the nineteenth century, although to folks in the western hemisphere it no doubt merits a little more attention.

I too was hoping for more lists for the Tudor wars, Italian wars and French wars of Religion but there is only so much you can fit into a book. A supplement will no doubt be along shortly.

Can you say more about the way pike and shot interaction works? I think this is the most critical feature of pike & shot rules and one that no rules to date have handled to my satisfaction at least.

Ill be using these rules for the Americas as well. Aztecs, Maya, & Huaxtecs….by the 1,000's…

Hi Pat,
What is the recommended basing and what sort of size is a standard ECW infantry unit in terms of number of figures? I'm presuming it would actually be two separate shot units and a pike unit under the rules. Are we looking at really big units of 36 figs or more or units the size of those in FoGR (24 figs)?
All the best,
George.

The main problem is indeed not the armylist (or lack thereof) for other theatres but the way the weapons interact.

The arquebus of Bicocca and Pavia are different to that used at Ceresole. Ranges and efficiency increase with time. Artillery gets more mobile, cavalry gets lighter, pistols get introduced, and so on.

On the other hand – its the fun that counts.

Puster is exactly right. Its the fun that counts. I am looking forward to receiving these rules.

"But for the era covered by the rules, it is a historical backwater. "

But it's not a WARGAMING backwater. Which is surely the reason.

Jaz
6sided.net

Bong, it's Black Powder so make your units whatever size you like, and base them how you like.

THEY use 20mm square bases, ussually with 4 figures to a 40 by 40 base. Standard Pike Unit is 12-25, shot 8 to 20 cavalry 6 to 12.

I will be using 12s and 9 horse until I have finished my Covenanter Expansion program when I shall switch to 24's and 18's.

Pat

How do you like the maps?

I'm working on my First Swedish unit, and I was planing on it beeing 16 shot, 8 on each wing, and a pike block center of 8 pikes with command,

Would a unit like that work?

You really need 12 for that pike unit , unless you want the 8 to be called a small unit .. the rules really want u to have 12 – 25 figures for a standard sized unit , and 8 to 11 for a small .

But if are rescaling then a standard unit being 8 figures would be fine .

Sven – the maps are amazing… but i think theres a major typo on page 141 , shouldn't Axelsson's cavalry be swedish or finns not Saxon's ???

@Dwight & Sven Lugar, what "Maps" guys???

Hi Pat and Dwight,
Thanks for the info, it's very helpful. I think I will be able to use 9 or 12 man units ( for combined pike and shot battalia of 18 or 24 men) as I had hoped.
All the best,
George.

really like what theyve done here, like that cavalry isnt all Trotters or Galloper, and some of of it is neither.

Only spotted one goof: Under the dragoons section in early Parliamentarian armies, obviously a copy and paste mistake from the "Tudor" Irish list!

Maps? I didn't notice any maps at all. There were some blobby illustrations pretending to be maps

Just kidding.
There are several very good maps, Uesugi, including one dinky one that shows the basic groupings of the thirty years war that is about as good as it gets, for simplicity and clarity.

Sven has no vested interest in what we think of them, have you Sven?

Pa

The only reason I will get them eventual is the ECW and TYW. ECW may be a backwater, but it is likely to be the only games I will play with these rules, other than some games of Lord Kalvan of otherwhen, which ois something of an even bigger historical backwater.

I bet it was expensive to get all those copys printed, and they need to sell a bunch of them just to stay even. And there seem to be a huge bunch of ECW gamers. So it only makes sense top do what you have to to sell a bunch of them. Besides with all the plastic ECW figures they make, of which I have way to many, I cant even get them all on my table, it makes absolute sense that they covered the period well.

Besides it sure seems like they are very interested in the war themselves, so why not give it some good attention.

Owen

The best military forces produced by the antagonists of the ECW, barely held its own the one time deployed into Europe, and then only with the assistance of some large ships firing on its opponents flanks.
As Griefbringer points out, it fits the commercial mould of the publisher.

------------------
Well it may be an historical backwater but its not a gaming one and surely thats the point – lot of British gamers like to game the ECW – its in our own back yard so its popularity as a period is not exactly surprising – the British wargames market is a big one – you're using the word commercial like its a bad thing. I have no interest in the period pre the ECW or TYW personally.

as to 5 lists – I presume Royalist, Parliamentarian, Covenanter, Montrose and NMA which would be the basic ones of interest to any ECW buff so quite reasonable

Btw, anyone started a Yahoo group for these rules yet, or intend to?

…….lot of British gamers like to game the ECW……..

A lot of non-British gamers love the ECW too!

Well it may be an historical backwater but its not a gaming one and surely thats the point………

As a Canadian, I have the good luck to live under a Parliamentarian democracy, so it is not a "historical backwater" to me at all. It was a time of great religious intolerance, destruction and violence. And yet, from that an excellent form of governance developed.

So two lists for 50 years of the Italian Wars, and five lists for the backwater that was the ECW?

For all I care throw out both Italian Wars lists and substitute an Irish ECW list for Cromwell's adventures "beyond the pale".

Btw, anyone in the USA received theirs yet?

Played it now. Great fun. Hahaha@you guys.

Initial observations- Hedgehog hasn't been used yet. In practice, units tend to break en masse anyway, so no instances of pike blocks breaking whilst the shot sleeves fight on yet for me.

Artillery are suitably useless.

Leigh

I live in Ohio and got mine yesterday (23rd). Great looking book.

Mike B

Woo-who! Mine just arrived (California)! Thanks Warlord Games & British Post! Today's my day off too. So much for painting today. Off to read!

Book looks very smart for those on the fence!

Ran into my first hiccup in the book, hoping someone can answer…

In the rear table, under "Freshly Raised"…it states, "Variable effect, see page 105."

However on page 105, you have the historical re-fight for Pavia scenario, but no "Freshly Raised" tables to speak of. Can anyone tell me where the Freshly Raised tables are in the book if they stumble across them?

Asked and answered,

page 89.

No Irish for ECW? Shocking and appalled, what's wrong with the Irish? Why aren't we in there……Give us a list, go on, go on, go on, go on, go on, go on, go on, go on……..

I have to say I was hoping for an Irish list, for the simple reason that given the stats for Pike, Shot, Horse and Others, anyone can design their own list for most of the ECW. But I have no idea what the Confederate forces were like.

There should have been more lists on the obscurer stuff.

How will I rate Christian of Brunswicks blokes with cudgels???

Pat

"But I have no idea what the Confederate forces were like."

Confederate forces have pike and shot, some Highlanders are available. The cavalry of the army of Ulster are lancers.

The well trained army of Ulster is a very formidable proposition under the command of Eoghan Rua O'Neill.

Khurasan do very good figures for the Irish Confederacy but for Ulster cavalry I suggest QRF's Scottish lancers or something similar.

If you want to know more drop me a line or start a thread on it.

Maybe worth pointing out for those still not in possession of the rules that there are very few predesigned army lists for this set. It's like Hail Caesar and Black Powder rules in that it gives you frameworks for troop types then kind of lets you design your own… I like to game ECW (a lot), but even with the 5 army lists I still thought there was much room for expansion. Fairfax's Northern Association doesn't really fit in with the Parliamentarian Army list.

The above is not what I'd consider a negative criticism- just thought it was worth pointing out.

Incidentally I spotted another little blip just to prove I'm on the ball- there's no points value given for Highlanders in the Royalist Scots ECW list. For shame!!

Leigh

"It's like Hail Caesar and Black Powder rules in that it gives you frameworks for troop types then kind of lets you design your own…"

That's what I was wandering about. I personally love that idea, I'm sick of pre-designed army lists. Thx for the info.

"No Irish for ECW? Shocking and appalled, what's wrong with the Irish? Why aren't we in there……Give us a list, go on, go on, go on, go on, go on, go on, go on, go on"

Heck, think thats bad? There's no Scots in the Tudor lists!!!

Got my copy today…. beautiful. Now to read and see if the rules make sense.

"As a Canadian, I have the good luck to live under a Parliamentarian democracy, so it is not a "historical backwater" to me at all"

And thats a direct result of some bloke called O Cromwell dieing and bequeathing the kingdom of England to another bloke called R Cromwell to rule exclusively?

And thats a direct result of some bloke called O Cromwell dieing and bequeathing the kingdom of England to another bloke called R Cromwell to rule exclusively?

Direct result? Probably not.

Despite you cherry picking the least democratic moment in all this, the ECW was one of a series of events that shaped Parliamentary Democracy. Even with the Restoration, the Monarchy could now ill afford to treat Parliament as cavalierly as did Charles 1. And let's face it, in the long run, the Parliamentarians won. It is the House of Commons that wields power in both our countries, and not the Monarchy. This is why the ECW is not a "historical backwater".

Can you say more about the way pike and shot interaction works? I think this is the most critical feature of pike & shot rules and one that no rules to date have handled to my satisfaction at least.

I notice there's been no comment on Bede19025s question so far.

I'd appreciate a comment on that as well. I've an ECW army that's not seen the light of day for years for the same reason!

Well, one could buy the rules and answer the questions themselves.

Indeed, although the great thing about TMP is that you can find out this sort of thing before spending £30.00 GBP -I've got several pricey sets on my shelves which frankly I wish I hadn't bothered with!!
The pike and shot are in different units, although they can come together into "hedgehogs" when cavalry threatens. I like these rules better than any other rules I've used for this period – I've never been convinced by the classic wargame units of pike in the middle and shot on the outside, all in a row-with Pike and Shotte you can form up in Dutch, Swedish etc and see how they go.

This sounds like a good swt. Any further feedback after a few games have been played?

Is command and control important? Historical personalities? Does it make a difference if Thurn or Gustav is in command?

Is command and control important?

The set uses the mechanism where you group manouver units into commands, with a commander. The Commander rolls against his leadership to move either individual units, or groups of units doing the same thing. When he fails a test that's him done for the turn. So yes, very important. In other sets of this family leadership is fixed. In P&S the overall commander's leadership is randomised, with some armies more likely to have lower ones. Similarly in, for example, the Covenanter army Cavalry commanders have lower leadership, so cavalry are less reliable. My 800 point Covenanter army (3 Lancers, 2 Cavalry, 4 Pike, 8 Shot, 4 frames, 1 Dragoons) has two cavalry commanders, two Infantry commanders and a General.

Historical personalities?

Yes, you can choose to have them. IIRC Rupert for example has a higher than normal command value, but adding him makes your cavalry more likely to behave foolishly.

Does it make a difference if Thurn or Gustav is in command?

Yes – though I can't remember if either of them are in the selction of special leaders. But taking the example of Rupert, such characters are easy to generate for anyone who knows the system.