"Elephants are a Problem" Topic

Writing in Slingshot 271, Mark Fry observes…

Elephants are (IMHO) almost always a problem sets of wargames rules I've played with. Just how do you get the balance right?

Do you agree?

Possibly, because no one has had to fight them with sticks for a long time.

Counter with siege?

I've tried balancing elephants, but they just won't hold still long enough.

This author may have a solution:

link

I assume that it is because elephants are depicted on table as having two models in the space of an infantry battlegroup. You might have say two of these groups in an army. However, in actuality the elephants are probably deployed wide rathere than deep and might be spread across a wing or the whole frontage of the army. So the elephant base instead of 40mm or 80mm shoiuld be 400 mm, but with little depth.. That's difficult given how we use units in the game.

Given that we have elephants too wide and too depp they then become manoeuvreable so we see Elephants turning flanks and gatting to the rear of opponents. In reality they are deployed very wide and thus operat mostly forward or back, but not with wheels and turns.

The other problem with elephants is that they are either veryy effective or ineffective in rules. If they don't work well then they are an expensive waste and players don't buy them. If they do work well they attract anti-elephant troops like attracts flies. That distorts the game, the general who can get the elephant antidote to meet the elephant does OK, but the chap who gets caught out is in for trouble. That matters more with hidden deployment or map systems.

Roy

Yes. There's a lot of debate over just how effective they were historically, so naturally this means that this lack of certainty will influence rules as well.

Some troops (and commanders) seemed more able to counter elephants than others. Should the designer allow dice randomness to account for this or give the 'elephant effectives' better stats? It's a tough choice, and everyone will have their own opinion on what works best :)

Cheers,
Aaron

Roy hits the nail on the head.

This is a problem for points-based games, for unit-based games where the elephants can't be spread in the same way as they could have been historically (or concentrated – it works both ways) and where the game is about winning and losing as players rather than about recreating historical events.

So it's a peculiar problem – but one which affects most of the games people play.

Not really had problems with elephants in wargames. The reality of a powerful capability is that it often has an equally powerful counter. This leads to wargame (and historical) results with radical variability – they were a godsend/they were a curse. So that type of behaivour in the game doesn't really bother me.

That said, I recommend balancing elephants with mice.

yes I agree – in fact there are three ancient 'problems' and in each case it is, i think, because people struggle to agree how they were used.

They are

Elephants
Chariots
Horse Archers

any rule set that allows them to be used,makes them usable but not too good or too weak has a serious leg up on the opposition.

In the systems I know;

WAB – Horse Archers are far too good, Elephants about right, Heavy Chariots a little weak, light chariots fine.

WMA – Elephants too good, Horse archer armies too good, chariots OK

DBM/DBA – all ok, but flavourless – since they are just another unit, why use them? and Horse archers have no ranged attacks…..

HC – So far the winner in my view, as each works well but not too well, and has flavour.

Pat

Thanks, Pat. I'll add:

Armati – Horse Archers are about right, Elephants and Chariots too weak;

FoG – Horse Archers are about right, Elephants are a bit weak. Early Chariots are a bit too tough in hand-to-hand (they ought to want to run away more often);

AMW – Elephants can be effective, Horse archers are OK – the only chariots in the period I'm familiar with are scythed chariots and they are nonsense (a gift to your opponent of a VP valid unit with no real chance of success against anything);

In FoG I'm not sure the points are wrong just the tactical use. In Armati the tactics _and the points are off balance (particularly with the chariots*). The Scythed Chariot thing in AMW just plays like a balance error that slipped through.

Phil

*but that's what happens when you ignore the input of the playtesters … Hmmm

This link might have a solution:

link

Just the Chariots and Horse Archers to fix, then …

no

Have only used elephants for WAB and as noted they seemed to work out just about right – tough but not invincible

I agree with Lewis gunner…. most battles used elephants as screens… more rarely as tanks.
JJ

Frederick, how do they act in WAB?? Tough but not invincible is fine, but does an historical deployment work? Is it even possible?
Historically they appear either as a screen (often against cavalry) or as a series of extra individual beasts ( Hellenistic, Romans, Sasanids) that give a bit more threat to an infantry line.

In the Elephant Victory against the Gauls they may well operate as a more concentrated unit, but which set of rules copes well for the screening and reinforcement role??
Roy

in WAB Elephants are fearsome, and Cavalry cannot charge them and must flee from their charge. They also cause Terror in Cavalry, so that Cavalry within a certain distance must pass a one-time test or flee. This means interlacing them with your own units can be tricky.

In combat they are tough, but a good infantry unit can be pushed back by them but almost never broken. In fact a decent infantry unit has a better than average chance of beating them.

Once they start stampeding they do not stop, and it is not uncommon for them to turn around and smash through their own units. If you can charge two elephants into one infantry unit you will probably destroy it eventually, but that's a lot of points to do the job.

The best weapons against infantry are archery, and skirmishing foot – so you are wise to shield them with skirmishing foot of your own. Flaming pigs are also well spoekn of as anti-elephant weapons.

Elephants are pricey – I have never seen more than three or four in even a fairly big game – that number would provide a screen wide enough to cover most of the table width with their terror effect, which most cavalry commanders will seriously try to avoid risking. I have lost units of my own cavalry to terror effects caused by friendly elephants.

It's a while since i last used them – am I mssing anything

Oh yes – drilled troops that are used to Elephants can open lanes to allow them through instead of being charged.

In summary, players who see Elephants for the first time tend to panic, and focus a huge amount into dealing with them. Players who know what they are like can usually counter them. What you cannot do is ignore them – you have to deal with them, and that in itself can justify using them.

They are best described as a 'Glass Hammer'

Do you feel that makes them histrically accurate? I do.

pat

The problem for me with games like WAB is that while in theory one figure or one model represents more than one real world archetype they then act as if they are actually single entities. Thus you get all the elephants making up a model rampaging at the same time and in the same direction which seems silly.

The problem in FoG and DBx is that elephants are always represented as discrete units or elements as a clump. While it may have been the case that on occasion elephants may have fought as a clump, this was not the normal usage as far as we can tell.

I cannot think of a way to represent elephants as units in games like FoG or DBx but there is perhaps some mileage in having them more like the regimental guns used in some renaissance rules such as FoG:R

How about a string of 15mm elephants across the front of your 28mm army as a sort of marker for the elephant line.
Not dissimilar to using buildings from the next scale down which is not uncommon.
I've done this as a joke in a HOTT army but it could work.

Actually, I do use 10mm Elephants in 15mm DBA armies for the smaller African Forest Elephants for the Numidians and most of the Carthaginian ones. Fit 3 to a stand. Now that's what SHC look like!

..it's the frontal armour and 88mm gun that does my head in …

And ellies work pretty well in DBA.

Just think 1960boot if the Germans had given the Elephant crews a pike and couple of archers that would still have been a serious anti personnel up grade!!