"Review of Muskets and Tomahawks" Topic

hi all

for those who haven't heard about these rules, they are a skirmish set of rules set in North America during the latter part of the 18th Century and were written by Alex Buchel who wrote Saga

they were written before Saga and have been available in French for a while but this will be the first English release of them

cheers

Mike

Thanks for the review Mike, I've been intrigued to find out more about the rules as I've been playing FIW using this Very Ground rules. I use 54 mm figures, although a bit expensive I don't need to build big armies. Do you feel T&M avail themselves to are larger scale figures, it certainly sounds like it?

Thanks again!

I cant see any reason why they wouldn't work at a larger or indeed shorter scale.

as long as the figures are based the same it should work a treat.

you might want to play around with movement or firing ranges but it's all do-able

Interesting review, thanks!

Who will be carrying these for sale?

North Star Miniatures will be carrying them in the UK, not sure about the rest of the world though

Been looking forward to this game for years. Even bought the French version. Will be nice to have a set that I don't have to translate! When will they be up for sale on the Northstar site?

Checked out the Northstar site and no details on buying the rules. Getting quite excited after reading Mike's excellent into. Anyone from Northstar able to update us please?
Thanks

I think Nick will wait unitill he gets the rules in his hands before offering it for sale.

I'll be seeing him on Saturday at salute so will double check that

MikeHobbs- thanks for the review. You mentioned rolling a dice, or dice, several times. Can you share with us whether this is a 1D6, 1D10, or multiple dice, such as 2D6?

Thanks again!

it's a d6 game,with each figure firing or shooting rolling a single dice

I bought a copy at Salute on saturday and just had a chance to read it. Must say I am very impressed.

I am using sharp practice for french indian wars at the moment but I think this set of rules is better.

Interestingly the guy at salute said they used "less figures than SAGA". Which nearly prevented me from buying them as I want a set that uses 60-100 figures per side not 10 men a side.

Having read the rules they are a little more scaleable than SAGA but I would say would easily work for 30-100 figures per side especially if you had more than 1 player per side.

Any one else got opinions on scale and play time?

The moving shooting melee is very similar to saga but without the battle boards.

Instead though you have a much more variable unit activation based on cards, and more individual traits and characteristics per unit to differentiate one from another.

In saga this is doone with the battle boards in this game it is done in a more traditional way.

Andy

I also picked up the rules at Salute.
Nice looking system.
I'm curious why you think it looks better than Sharp Practice + La Longue Carabine?
It shares many of the same mechanisms (card-driven activation, unit-based skirmish, d6 mechanics, random events).
M&T has the neat officer side plot stuff, and a good scenario generator, but doesn't have the Big Men mechanic from SP.
The two games have a slightly different feel, but I'm not sure I could say one was 'better'.

Dexter,

Well it is a personal opinion and depends on what you like. I agree sharp practice and Muskets and tomahawks are fairly similar.

M&T I would say is less wooly. Example, Spotting, in M&T when you get a a specific range for a type of unit for a type of cover you auto spot them. In SP you have a lot of modifiers and vagueness and a modified dice roll.

SP may be perceived as "more realistic" or detailed. It is also more fiddly and slow in comparison. On this specific example.

Another one, both sides are card activated. SP uses the idea that when you turn a card you activate a big man and he can activate a number of units. there is quite a lot of fiddly stuff in there and it can mean your units are activated in quite strange combinations.

In M&T the cards represent "types" so if a British regular card is drawn or a French Militia card is drawn then all units on that side of that type get to activate together.

This is a neat and simple way of ensuring all your indians ambush together or all your regulars volley fire on command.

In addition the really clever bit is that whilst in SP a big man and his units basically get one card and they then carry out their full activation, in M&T each type, say indians or regulars get a number of activation cards in the deck. explained below

Regulars have 2 cards but each one has 2 activations so regulars do not get drawn very often but when they do get drawn they can volley fire and then reload or charge together.

Indians have 4 cards but only get 1 activation on each one. So they come up twice as often but unpredictable when and they can only do a little each time, nicely representing their lack of discipline but greater flexability.

Something like Civillians for example only have 2 cards and only have 1 activation on each one, so basically just can't do as much as more experienced fighters.

Alex wrote SAGA, I believe SAGA is the finest skirmish set of rules I have ever read. They are simple, but immensely elegant. Whilst M&T are very different they still have that simple elegancy which I loved in SAGA.

ALL personal opinion, some people are going to hate the rules and I have NOT actually played them yet! First game is scheduled for a couple of weeks time.

Andy

I have played all three systems and like them all. There is a review of M&T on my blog:
link

The game sounds great; any recommendations as to 25/28 mm figures?
Danny Weitz

be nice to discover a North American retailer…

Also, much as I like TFL stuff, they often have more wooliness than sheep country after the pubs close.

On Military Matters has the rules.

Danny Weitz

25mm / 28mm Figure Sources vary depending on whether: 1. you buy in Europe or the America and 2.you prefer the larger or the smaller 25/28 figures. (In this case "a rose is a rose is a rose" does not apply. Some 28mm's are "more equal than others" when it comes to size match up.

In America the smaller figures seem to be somewhat more accessible and seem to match and mix more easily. Mostly, you can get them from Conquest, Perry Brothers and Eureka USA,Old Glory and Foundry (if you have some spare gold bars to trade).

Of course, as I am in the US, I know less about these. In Europe the larger figures seem to be more available and can mixed and matched more easily. Sources for these seem to be Blue Moon, Galloping Major, Redoubt Enterprises.

Foundry and Front Rank seem to be a matter of taste as to how well they match up. There are numerous other sources for 18th. Century figures that match up with one size or the other, but are two numerous to mention here. Many are works of art and add character and variety to your table.

If I had to mention one 15/18mm company to look at it would be Blue Moon. I have only seen pictures, but they seem to be impressive and constantly growing in variety.

Hope this helps get you started.

Regards,

Gray Wolf

Galloping Major Miniatures are available from Loyalhanna Outpost in the U.S..
loyalhannaoutpost.com

Well I am order M&T today. Also are all the GM figures available from Loyalhanna?

Mike,
Do the rules work for AWI as well?

The rules work for AWI and contain army lists for Hessians and American s as well as AWI units in the French and British lists (cavalry)

Hello skyking20,
Yes all the GM figures are available at Loyalhanna. The only thing I do not handle is box sets.
thank you,
Keith

The rules are really over rated, there are much better sets for the period out there.

In what way do you think the rules are over-rated?
What are the better sets?
Just saying you don't like a set of rules doesn't help unless you say why.

The better rules for this level of game are Black Powder Skirmish, This Very Ground and Sharp practice.
I think that M&T has ridden on the back of Saga and is Basicly War Hammer FIW with a few cards thrown in and no saving throws.

So not having saving throws makes the rules bad?
I agree that Sharpe Practice + La Longue Carabine gives a good game, but M&T has some very nice ides; the scenarios with objectives and side plots are very good.

Saving throws haven't got much to do with it. M&T was promoted pre release as something outstanding reviewers were lording them all over the place. As a gamer with a FIW collection I couldn't wait to try them out, when I did I was most disappointed. I just can't understand all the hype about them, they have nothing new to offer at all, 4+ and take a figure off.
Its the second time I have been disappointed by a set of rules that were lorded by all the wargames press and and pushed by certain parties as something outstanding but turned out to be a damp squib, Fortunately I didn't shell out the cash to buy them this time.
Sorry but the Emperor is naked.

Its the second time I have been disappointed by a set of rules that were lorded by all the wargames press and and pushed by certain parties as something outstanding but turned out to be a damp squib, Fortunately I didn't shell out the cash to buy them this time.
Sorry but the Emperor is naked.
-------------------
very loaded language (lorded, pushed) which you can of course use but still loaded. 'The Emperor is naked' comment implies of course like the use of 'sheeple' on other forums implies that people are too brainwashed to see what those who are sensible know.
As to 'WH FIW' – well comparing games one doesn't like seems to WH be a common tactic here of some – personally I think WAB for instance is a very good game and was written to in terms of supplements by some eminent historical gameRs and not just those 'weird fantasy who are not real wargamer' types

As said the side plots etc is a nice idea

I like WH too, I play the Great War version. The point i am making is that M&T brings nothing new to the table despite it being reviewed by magazines, blogs and pod casts as something outstanding. This also happened with Black Powder, editors pundits and such were invited for a game or games round at the Perry's and other nice places and the rules were once again reviewed as something outstanding, and they are not they are just another version of another set. Gripping beast push M&T dont they?
This Very Ground has Scenarios in it, Sharp Practice and Black Powder battles have character development and all of them have good innovative gaming systems father than 4+ take a figure off.

Fair enough – each to their own. probably after the success of SAGA the people were more interested in M&T than otherwise. I was a bit put off Sharp Practice by the interview in Battlegames where the TFL came across as a bit too much 'we're simulating military reality' for me and made a few sniffy comments about SAGA.

I read those comments too and he also repeated them on a podcast I heard as well. It sounded a bit like sour grapes and was uncalled for really. I like sharp Practice and a couple of their other sets too, but if you play them one after to other it does all start to get a bit mixed up and same old same old.

Like you say each to thier own.

Ned
Yes – I do think that other rules makers commenting upon other peoples sets is a bit off (i think he described SAGA as game to play with his family at Christmas which makes it sound like Kerplunk or Risk).

Played them last weekend. Lost. They were not bad rules; but I'm not a big fan of skirmish games. Also tried Maurice last weekend. What's with all the card driven rules?

I like M&T, had a sizable game with multiple players and played fluidly, which for 4 hours per club night suites me fine.

Sharpe practice is not a bad game neither. Played a few games and I did like it.

Didn't realize that TFL had been slating a fellow company (who I might add are selling their rules along with SAGA)…kind of makes me lose a bit of respect for them.

And stuff for certain pod casters say……that just annoies me!

Muskets & Tomahawks rocks…

Have played almost 20 games now and have not been disappointed

Somehow it seems to capture the spirit of the times…

Volley Fire…Reload
The whoop of Indians as they charge
The screams of settlers as cabins catch fire
Sneaky attacks…it has it all

So much so the last quarter of the year has seen 300 figures go under the paintbrush, woodland terrain built, a fort constructed,rivers widened etc etc…

Big Fan – well done Studio Tomahawk !!

Eric the Shed

shedwars.blogspot.com

My wife loves it

She loves being the Indians and scalping but then she is from Bristol!

I have to say, listening to the podcast I don't their was any slating. I think people have quite the wrong end of the stick. I actually suggest the comment 'christmas board' game is erm…. true. Is that bad? No not at all, in fact I think its a compliment. Surely the fact it can be played between multiple levels of 'gamers' a great thing?
The fact TFL have a similar period game out is irrelevant as the games are very very different.

I have not seen the podcast – it was the interview with them in Battle Games I think where having spent a long time talking about how their games are realistic etc they then say that SAGA is a game you could play at Christmas – I think thats as we say in the UK damning with faint praise as the kind of games that people play at Christmas are Risk etc

Aye, A backhanded compliment if ever I heard one……

Great review.

I just got M&T for Xmas. I ready like SP, but Very Ground not as much. I am very impressed with the M&T rules as they are written.