"Computer Moderated Empire V - source code released" Topic

Finally got this thing up an going, with an early release of the source code :

link

This is an early (very early) developer release. The whole framework is there now, allowing orbats to be setup, players to be administered, and games to be started. Thats actually all the hard stuff out the way. Code is up on github, so you can grab a copy and start to have a look if you are keen. Requires a basic knowledge of setting up a web server, configuring PHP / mySQL, etc, etc. All the code is GPL'ed as well.

Just plowing through getting each phase of the game accurately modelled in software now, and all that is happening a pleasing pace.

A few screenshots from the player view :

~ Review forces under your command

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~ Visit unit to perform a parade and inspection

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~ Player HQ command center, with a graphical drag-n-drop user interface for issuing orders, and arranging relative positions of formations.

Plus … a pile of screen shots for the admin and umpiring interface.

So far so good !

That's incredibly fast work. Well done, I'll check it out over the weekend.

Very nice… Hmmm… (Wheels turning…)

Interesting, the main criticism of Empire is its complexity, never heard a complaint about its accuracy or realism. If the computer can reduce the complexity … ? Interesting.

Thanks for the comments.

Thats what I thought regarding empire too. Im just learning the rules myself, and finding the complexity really cool, but quite difficult to get my head around the steps sometimes. Thought the computer might be a good solution for that.

The rules are written in such a way that they translate really well into code. Some rules are good for that … some not so good.

Anyway, this will make playing Empire an absolute blast, and because all the calculations are shown on screen, its a decent learning tool for understanding how a game of Empire should work I suppose.

Interesting looking at comments about Carnage&Glory as well – great system by the sounds of it, but the main criticism is that it is single-user, and so the data entry becomes a bottleneck in a big game.

On the other hand, wuth a web application, its almost impossible not to write it as robustly multi-user. Data entry throughput is not an issue with web apps, since all data entry is done in parallel by multiple users.

Steve,

You might want to take the time to explain to people who download this how they can get it running on XAMP or Easy PHP for example on a localhost.

You might also consider providing a version with a user already created.

I have to say, I'm impressed with what I've read, I've not got the download working yet so can't comment on that. However, my fear right from the start with this is that I can't imagine a computer speeding up play. The time spent entering everything into the pc will replace the time doing calculations in my head, maybe more so. However, I've not played Empire and I'm keen to support this idea to its conclusion so please don't misinterpret my comments as criticism.

I have to say I find the download quite bloated as well with folders and structure which I guess is the overhead associated with codeigniter or whatever. Still, if it works :)

Good points – I will get around to sorting out XAMP and all that with a decent bundle when its all stable. Down the track sometime for sure. Not a simple exersize at the moment though .. there aint no windows machines within a mile of this place.

I have uploaded some more SQL files now that includes a set of users ready to go.

I hear what you are saying about the data entry as well – running the game itself should require the absolute bare minimum of data entry .. else there is little overall time saving.

You need to have a few games of Empire .. the first couple of games are mind numbingly intriguing as you can easily lose yourself in all the calculations. Percentage losses for units, percentage losses across combined manuoevre elements, additional impact from aggregate percentage losses across a number of related units in the previous turn … except for aggregated cavalry units … or collections of units on garrison orders … but only if they closed with the bayonet in the last hour … etc, etc. Its not your average game ! But it is a number cruncher's delight.

I gather that experienced Empire players (like the Author himself by his own admission), looks at a situation, makes a quick assessment, then rolls the dice. If the die roll is obviously good, they move along. If not obvious, they then start crunching numbers. But I suppose it takes a long time to get to the point where you can make those quick assessments with any accuracy.

Setting up the games is where the potential for problems in time consumption lays I think, and the solution to that is to create a large library of scenarios and Orbats that users can install-with-one-click sort of thing.

Having a look at the bloat – thats quite interesting. CodeIgniter itself is pretty lightweight, so there is about a 4MB bloat overhead from the various libs I am pulling in. Out of that, around 2.5MB is from 1 single javascript control to handle rich text editting !! eeeks ! The fun we have ….

There is also a fair bit in there that can be trimmed back later, as it includes full development bundle for jquery and things like that.

Steve,

If you want others to be able to comment, you're gonna have to take the pain early on to get them able to set up. I'd like to think I know what's going on and even I'm confused and going nowhere :)

When I said bloat, I think I was a bit misleading. I don't mean in total size which isn't too bad, but in confusion over where the hell everything is.

Until I can get the application working, I'm unable to see much beyond your database structure. I'd suggest that you maybe wipe the tables which should be empty for a fresh install too. Logins for example I'm guessing?

I've got a week's holiday next week so I want to get to grips with my own coding challenges with the campaign system, I suspect I have got the basis of what I want to do now so thanks for your continued inspiration.

Gavin

May I suggest a step by step 'instalation' document that will get the home pc user up and running. Perhaps with links to places on the web that explain how to configure things?

I'm with Gavin (who knows much more than I). I can't even begin to comment on any of it, except the graphics, which look AWESOME!!!!!Keep on goin'!

Rob

In my experience, the computer does not speed up play and Empire wasn't really that bad… :)

I have always been interested in the OB/force side of something like this though.

If it speeds up play somehow, then bonus! :)

Yes, but there's no cure for the person who insists on doing all of the calculations in their head or by hand before deciding !

"Percentage losses for units, percentage losses across combined manuoevre elements, additional impact from aggregate percentage losses across a number of related units in the previous turn … except for aggregated cavalry units … or collections of units on garrison orders … but only if they closed with the bayonet in the last hour … etc, etc. Its not your average game ! "

Crikey ! Maybe I should just break out my ASL RB again and call it a day :)

As a computer moderated gamer since the beginning, Eaglebearer 20+ years ago, I wish you well with this project. I've reviewed your website and while I think in theory having each side able to access the program and issue orders, etc. encourages transparency it will be cumbersome and unworkable. Showing the results of dice rolls is unnecessary and the option the allow players to rolle the dice and input the results will just bog down the system.

I found this concept interesting: "This is still under Umpire control at this stage. If the Umpire decides that the result is not in the best interest of the game, for whatever reason, he can choose to 're-roll ME determination test' and get a completely fresh result.

You seem overly concerned with "getting players involved"…my experience is that as long as the sequence of play moves along and all you require the players to worry about is what's happening to their troops and what they plan on doing getting bored is not a problem.

I know some rules allow re rolls based on command ratings, etc. but having the umpire decide the roll is not in the best interest of the game opens up a whole can of something…and it won't work to anyones benefit.

db

From my point of view. The more a computer program just spits out the results the more attractive it is to me. :o)

Ditto- don't think much would be known about tactial results until commanders percieved the firing line moving away, or fugitives streaming back! That could be quite misleading too!

The advantage of a computer generated Empire V to me is that fatigue, losses, morale, formation, distance moved..all of the minutiae…is handled and not forgotten. Our group has played for years and yet we still determine occasionally that we have misinterpreted something. As noted above by Steve64, we'll use Empire more accurately, avoid the number crunching, have better OBs, etc. this is great. I like Carnage and Glory, having played several games, and this will be even better than that system or even shooting my plastic 54s with elastics.

I wouldn't so quick to assume computer assisted Empire will be "better" than Carnage and Glory until you see and play the final product.

db