"German Tanks - Western Front " Topic

What model(s) was most prevelent at the time of the allied invasion of France?

Also, in the movie Saving Private Ryan, there is a seen towards the end were a couple of 101st troopers drop Molotovs on a small piece of armor featuring a enclosed deck that a few German soldiers are standing on. What is that?

At the time of Overlord IIRC Panthers outnumbered PZ IVs.

If you want a list of "possibles" then it is truly immense, everything from Hotchkiss to T26 saw action in France 44.

What are you wanting to field?

Here's the vehicle, I'm not sure, some kind of tank destroyer for certain

link

At the time of Overlord IIRC Panthers outnumbered PZ IVs.

Really? I'd have thought it was the other way round.

There were 2 tank destroyers (the open topped ones), a Marder and a SavM43

All your questions are answered on the pages of this site:
sproe.com/s/sav-m43.html

Here's the vehicle, I'm not sure, some kind of tank destroyer for certain

Looks like a Wespe to me.

It`s a Marder III M, with the hull reconstructed for the movie on a real Panzer 38(t) chassis. There's a second Marder III in the movie, based on a Swedish Sav m/43 assault gun (also built on a 38(t) Chassis).
Lots of info on SPR:
sproe.com/index.html

Panzer IVHs was the most common german tank during 1944, in both the Eastern and Western front.

The Germans produced about 8,800 Panzer IVs for the whole war – and about 6,000 Panthers for the mid to late war

However – they also produced 9400 StuGIIIs and and additional 1200 StuH 42s

I think that the most common armoured vehicles were probably the lowly StuGs

During the first week of the invasion – in the American sectors – there were NO modern German tanks at all – period. All the German Panzer units in action were in the British/Canadian sectors.

The German armor available in the American sector was restricted to small numbers of obsolete French/Russian/German tanks available to the Panzer training Abteilung in the 7th Army which the American Paratroops descended on, the few self-propelled anti-tank guns available to the PanzerJager Abteilungs of various infantry divisions, and the elements of the same brought up by the forward elements 17th SS Panzer-Grenadier Division.

Thus, the only modern armour facing any US troops in the first week were StuG III, PzJg 38(t) and PzJg IV – and always in small numbers. There were no modern Pzkfw IV, Pzkfw V, or Pzkfw VI in the US sectors anywhere during this period and for some time afterwards (almost, if not all, of June IIRC). And the US forces never engaged a single Tiger in Normandy at all!

The unroofed PzJg in SPR was a PzJg 38(t) Marder – exactly of the type available in small numbers in the US sectors. The roofed version was a highly modified version not seen in WW II.

Hope this helps.

Mark

If you incude S.PJ-Abt's three command Panthers then 655 Panthers served in Normandy.

A total of 897 Panzer IVs served in the campaign.

For StuG IIIs the number is not as accurate. 453 were employed but this does not include replacements, but these number no more than 100 sent to Normandy.

Only 126 Tiger Is served in Normandy, with possibly 12 Tiger IIs.

Thus the Panzer IV was the most common by far.

The ruleset for 25/28mm is going to be Victory Decision. Most if not all of the scenarios I plan to host will be France/Belgium/Holland/Germany theater. I plan on getting a couple of Shermans (75 and 105) and was leaning towards a Tiger (they are ferocious looking IMHO) and a Panzer IV or a Panther. I'm not a stickler to history, after all it's just a game (I hope I did not offend anyone with that statement, as I certainly didn't mean too; just looking to have fun with wargaming). I am glad I checked on this before purchasing (leaning towards Precision MD). I may go Panther and Panzer IV. Thanks to everyone for the advice.

Oh, was the large tank that is seen first in the battle at the end of SPR supposed to be a Tiger or a StuG III?

link

Also, what kind of half track are the Germans using in the scene when Miller links up with Ryan?

Found it; SdKfz 251

Normandy 1944 by Niklas Zetterling, chapter 6 lists total for the campaign:
Panzer IV, 897
Panzer V, 654-5
StuG III & StuH, 453
Tiger I, 126
JgPzIV, 114
Panzer III, 30
JgPzV, 25
SturmPzIV, 16-28
Tiger II, 12
Marder, total not given

So the ratios are 18:13:9:2.5 for pz iv, panther, stug and tiger. More panthers in Normandy than many people realise.

It is probably more useful to look at vehicle totals in particular divisions though.

CharlesRollinsWare:

And the US forces never engaged a single Tiger at all!

Sure they did. Considering how many times GI's shout 'Tiger!' everytime they see a panzer, every German tank is a 'Tiger.' ;-)

Tigerjon:

(I'm) leaning towards a Tiger

Everyone must have at least one. I have 3 plus a King Tiger. One of them belongs to Michael Wittman.

I'm not a stickler to history.

That's okay. As long as your scenarios are plausible they don't have to have 'actually happened.' I use my Tiger zug routinely against Americans even though they only faced the Tommies. You're right, it's just a game.

It's a Marder III, the wespe was on a PZ2 chassis and had a 105mm gun.

The tank in the end was supposed to be a Tiger, but it is actually a modified T-34, same ones used in Kelly's Hero's. You can tell by the road wheels, they did a pretty good job of making it look like a Tiger, but T-34 was a bit smaller.

Another good make over is in Band of Brothers the STUG they made out of a British Warrior APC.

Doubt they used a Warrior they are current kit not for sale to the public, most likely a FV 432 plenty of them on the market

It is probably more useful to look at vehicle totals in particular divisions though.

Zetterling does give the break down by divisions, often by date with combat-ready numbers. Definitely worth buying this book for anyone who wants to do specific scenarios.

A 432 it is! link

If you are doing tactical actions then you generally need at least a platoons worth of tanks of a given type, as it was vanishingly rare for them to be committed in numbers less than that.

So really you need a platoons worth of Pz IVs, Panthers, Tiger 1s and Stugs, plus if you insist on doing the 503rd at Goodwood you need some Tiger IIs as well. Plus some Jadpanthers for Bluecoat, and a few Jagdpanzer IVs, Marders etc….

Then there is the captured French stuff.

I am planning and acquiring for skirmish level games. 28mm on a table size of 6x5, I won't have room for more than about 2 piece of armor per side.

Speaking of tanks, I brought out the BoB DVDs a few nights ago. Last night I watched Carentan. When the platoon of Shermans crashes through the hedgerow, ma deuces a blazin', that's awesome.

The Skirmish Campaigns scenario books have some excellent ones covering Normandy. Most of the scenarios don't need tons of armour (apart from a few in the 'Operation Epsom' set).

That scene from BoB also features the 'Stug' mocked up on an FV432 chassis. It also ensured that every FJ re-enactor is never seen without a flower in their smock lapel…

LMAO!

Small point but the 'Tigers' in SPR were based on a T54
chassis not the T34.

Again you can tell by the road wheels ;o)

Er… Nope.

The ones in SPR are 1952 ZM Labedy T-34/85s. They used to be at Bovvy for a while till one caught fire.

You can tell they are T-34s by the wheel spacing and the tracks… T-55s have a gap between the first road wheel and the rest, the T-34 does not.

As seen here the SPR Tiger has no spacing, all are equal;

The T-55 Tiger is a repro done by a UK re-enactment unit.

As can be seen here, it has T-55 tracks and wheel spacing;

God Im rivet-counting repros now…

That is serious re enactment, what does one of those cost?

The tanks are surprisingly unexpensive (due to a glut in the countries of the former Warsaw Pact). At one point you could get a T34 for less than $10,000. USD Shipping costs an arm and a leg, though.

Ten grand!

Bloody hell, missed my chance to become emperor of Bongolesia!

Split 4 o 5 ways, it's cheaper than re enacting Hussars.

Can one of those be registered with the DMV in the US? That would be fun to drive to work.

'bout the only non oil exporting country where anyone cou;ld afford to drive one to work. Where I live we are paying $5 USD per gallon for diesel and $7 USD for petrol.

Cheaper to hire a limo to go to work.

Not for long. If , anyone who has anything is going to be .

Grossman and Black Bull, I always thought the Stug in BofB, was based on an old Chaffee chassis?

Yes, T55s were going for about eight grand (GBP) a few years ago.

Possibly an urban myth, but I heard one UK dealer bought ten (for reasale to the various 'tank experience' type places) and discovered that although the vehicles had been disarmed, all the machineguns had just been dismounted and stacked up inside one of them. This lot had all sailed past HM Customs….

The T-55 Tiger is a repro done by a UK re-enactment unit.

errrrm, no.

It was bought from the company who made it for film work.

Martin

And they confiscated my calvados at the airport!

Cunning plot ,no!

Let's hide the MGs in a tank, no none will look there.

Thank god it wasn't a SAM battery.

You can see from the last few posts that all you actually need for Normandy are Tigers, ideally bodged up on various Soviet chassis.

Well, I have a Tiger on the way (Wittman's Tiger by Bolt Action). I have heard some good things about this line do when I saw it for @ $30 USD on eBay, I said, "What the hell." I think I'll get a Panzer IV and unless I get an Sdkfz 251, that'll do it for me.

I'd add a Panther to the mix, just to *really* make your Allies player panic when the Sherman's 75mm bounces off the glacis.