"GM Compensation" Topic

Now seeing the recent discussions….

So should GMs be compensated?

In my experience it seems like there are two types of approaches which depend on the "type of convention"

The smaller local convention, usually one to two days several hundred participants at most. Typical door cost $10 USD-15. GMs usually personally known and or invited by the organizers and everybody pays to get in. The GMs are not compensated.

The big conventions, usually three days or more. 1,000-10,000 participants. Typical door cost of $45 USD or more. GMs and or Volunteers usually get free admission as a perk for running games. However this also leads to potential abuse and or the need to administer the compensation to avoid the abuse….

Just curious what the general thought is?

Let me add a few additional comments:
Now mostly I am into GMing for the chicks! So the compensation is not a big deal at the local cons.

However:
Local cons, my friends… Close to home, less hassle, and I like putting on games for my friends.
Bigger cons, more strangers, more hassle, more risk of theft and or damage. Rather go and just play (so the compensation helps sway me to put on a game or two)

The poll question:

Should GMs get some form of compensation?

LOL, at one event I pay to attend and run games too! But I am happy to do so as I get play other peoples games as well.

Free admission is plenty of 'compensation' as far as I am concerned, maybe a free cup of tea as well:)

Free entry seems to be doing the trick, it would be all I would expect when running a game.

I'm happy to GM without compensation but our con is pretty small. I even pay just to go and run games!

Well I consider free admission to be compensation by the way…..

The question is should they get even that? Or are they just another attendee?

At UK shows, if you are running a game, or are part of a team running a game, you get in free.

I wouldn't pay to run a game at a show.

My view is that the game is part of the "draw", and if I am expected to bring figures, terrain and rules, and design and run a scenario for strangers (all or most of whom have paid to be there), I want to have my admission paid for.

I have run lots of games at shows and have never paid admission. I have also turned down opportunities to run games at shows where free admission was not offered. I think that if I'm bringing value for people who paid, it's only fair that I don't have to pay.

Regards,

w.

It all comes down to money, if the organization is taking a loss then it needs to eliminate free admission.

I think there should be some kind of incentive. If free is a problem then maybe a discount, but that is up to the organization running the con.

So that kind of begs the question a followup question. If you come in a run a 2 hour game or even a 4 hour game once during a 3 day convention should you still get in free?

I think they should get in free at the least. With the amount of money some cons make (despite being run by organizations that claim to be non-profit), I don't think it would be a bad thing to give a GM $10 USD for each game that actually runs (not planned games that don't run due to lack of interest/participation).

If you are running a game you are most certainly NOT "just another attendee". You are a vital part of the convention's continued success and hence should at least get free admission (to the big cons). For the small cons it's nice to get something but not required-- at the Triangle Simulation Society's two events up in Raleigh they make you pay (with a discount? It's been a while…) but give you a number of free tickets for the raffle which generally has incredibly nice prizes in it.

I run games in my Man Cave every week for our local gaming group so I don't NEED to go anywhere else to have a place to play and gamers to join in. So I know if I did not get admission to the HMGS cons I don't think I would continue spending all the time, effort, and money doing my award winning games for them. It seems I rather need that tiny "attaboy" from the con to feel like they want me there. I do think the latest rule they have instituted to make GMs be members to get the free admission is a good one, though.

"So that kind of begs the question a followup question. If you come in a run a 2 hour game or even a 4 hour game once during a 3 day convention should you still get in free?"

A good question, but the free admission from HMGS requires a certain number of "game hours" be run. This is the number of hours the game runs times number of players for each session. I'm sure there are those who inflate the numbers for both to make it seem like it meets the requirement but I would like to believe that that is a very small minority of GMs.

I would run games either way. It's more of a hobby to me to create an run games then to play them.

I think the GMs should get in for free, it only makes sense, If you figure the cost of travel, hotel rooms, meals….and thats usually something everybody attending deals with if its a major convention. Add to that bringing figures and buildings, terrain, and supplies in case anything breaks, of course they should get in for free, they are helping to make the convention a success.
I'm thinking that the people who put on conventions don't make much of a profit in any, and couldn't afford to pay GMs, so letting them in for free seems fair.

For the small, local Game Days and Cons, I happily chip in.

When the Circus goes on the road, then I think there should be something.

Doesn't have to be a free admit. I'm okay with half price off. After all, I'm helping THEM out. Like Nazrat, I don't have to go out to play.

Eric

Really not a issue. Some conventions have established rules and for the most part are followed with few exceptions. I see it as a real NON issue.

VR
James Mattes

Truth is I wonder about it when some folks are getting more than just free admission for running a game or working the desk.

I've been in both classes as a GM, Paid and free admission. Never anything more than that.

New York Nerds offer "free" entry to GMs. Dreaming up a scenario, hauling equipment and perhaps purchasing that special bric-a-brac for the game (eg a second copy of Memoir 44 I never use otherwise)means it isn't compensation, it's a rebate.

Also depends on the resources the convention has. Remember, TANSTAAFL---nothing is really free. Early in HMGS, nobody thought twice about paying as a GM---it was just great to be with all the folks who shared the hobby, and the Society didn't have a lot of money!

THings are different now. I usually pay even though I run a game or two.

Mike

My response in the Cold Wars AAR thread:

How about something of a compromise? GMs, whether members or not, pay the member rate for admission if they pre-register their game(s)? And with some of that "extra" money, resurrect the GM Help Desk (or whatever you want to call it), and increase the awards/recognition by handing out more inexpensive, but meaningful, GM awards? Could be a coin, pin, ribbon, or certificate. Some people like that kind of stuff.

I put together games because I enjoy it. I run games at conventions because I enjoy it. If the organizers want to give me a free t-shirt, or free admission, or whatever, great. If not, not that big a deal to me. I get more use out of my investment. There are only so many times my regular group wants to storm ashore on a Pacific Island or refight Hampton Roads.

If the price of admission is a deal breaker for you after having invested hundreds in the game you want to run you may need to reassess you finances and spending priorities.

Compensation doesn't really bother me, as I love displaying games, but I certainly wouldn't refuse it!

One of my work colleagues is a very accomplished railway modeller and takes his layouts to model railway shows around the country. Without exception, he is PAID to attend and also gets paid mileage allowance! At some of them he also gets an engraved brass plate in front of his stand, saying who he is.

We did actually experience this once (about 20 years ago), when our club was invited to put on a game at a large, multi-hobby extravaganza in the Royal Welsh Showground at Builth Wells. The club received £100.00 GBP, plus mileage expenses.

I really don't mind paying to got to a con and run a game at the show. GMs are a vital part of the event, I agree, but it certainly doesn't bother me that they pay.

I like firstvarty1979's idea. I think all above average games should be recognized. It seems rather pointless to pick one winner per time slot as opposed to recognizing extra effort games. Of course, making sure the money stayed in that expenditure would be the trick, as would knowing how much you had ahead of time to spend – but you should be able to get close.

Barring his idea for HMGS, if it ain't broke, don't fix it.

I like the free pass because it makes me feel special.

However, I'd pay as a GM at the big three HMGS conventions if I knew it was going to resurrect and maintain the GM Help Desk. Good idea that.

I just find it odd that the three big HMGS conventions don't provide support to assist GMs on site.

I would vote for GM compensation. All the folks who put on games seem to put so much time and effort into it that a free pass/entry seems a very nice gesture.

Erik

Free entry would be nice but lack therof wouldnt be a deal breaker. Id take a hearty handshake and a pat on the back.

As I said in the other thread. I used to run a lot of games at Cold Wars, Fall-In! and Historicon. In recent years, work, private business, and familial issues conspired to wreck most of my free-time, so I haven't put one on in the last two or three, but now that these issues are clearing up I will be doing it again. Sometimes put on 4 and 5 games pers show.

I did this LONG before the Help desk leader, "He Who Must Not Be Blamed" thought up the idea. I thought it was bad then, still do. Never took my free badge and always paid my admission. I don't think GM's should get anything except the thank you of the organization. It's part of being a member of a society, you contribute for the greater good. I'm proud and happy to do it.

If you want to recognize peoples efforts then thank them- personally, publically. Other than that the $25 USD is chump change compared to what we spend on the hobby and it's for a good cause. I like to put on games so I'm quite happy to pay for a con where I can do that.

Most of the schemes put out here have one HUGE fault. They cost! They are going to cost even more than the present system simply because you will have to track who puts on what, chase people to put on games, and do all the bureaucracy involved. What the conventions need-- what HMGS needs-- is not ideas that cause them to have to do MORE work and make the conventions labor intensive (requiring volunteers to do the work who then have to be compensated- what it needs is simplification and a canny eye to what is nnecessary, not what is nice. We have to figure out how to do LESS work.

Set up a system where people can get money out of it, no matter how good your intentions, you will get people who will be willing to "game the sytem" to get money and do nothing. No chance of scamming the system and these people dissappear.

Like I said- if you don't want yellow jackets buzzing around the lemonade pitcher at your picnic- make it with Splenda.

And speaking of…

TMP link

My issue is not the $25 USD for one convention. I do like going to conventions, but when he think of 3 conventions for $25 USD each, plus some conventions that aren't so local but want us to put on games, at $20 USD a pop it starts to add up. Considering $25 USD as chump change when it is tough for some of us, can be a bit insulting. I spent less than $60 USD including hotel and food at Cold Wars. That is what enabled me to go and put on a game that had an enjoyable evening for a group of gamers.

I've gone to one where all I managed to do was put on 2 games for the local club, didn't get to play in any games and had to pay $20 USD for this priveledge. The convention was over 3 hours from home, so that is a bit of a treck.

I love putting on games, and there are folks that like the games I put on, but without the little bennie of at least a greatly discounted if not free entry fee, I am unable financially to go to many conventions and put on games.

O Schmidt, why was the GM Help Desk a bad idea?

Looks like you now have to be a member to get free GM admission. I think that's new. Either way it's not a deal breaker.

DM

Free kevlar body armour?

Free admission for GMs at the very least should be provided for decent sized miniatures games, since a tremendous amount of time, effort, and expense is usually put into producing them.

That is not a new policy in and of itself. It was one of the old policies (one of many over the years), which was changed, and is now being changed back to that.

In Australia our gaming cons have far more tournaments than display games, I'd say somewhere in the order of ten to one (if not more). For the larger cons TO's get paid a nominal amount, but then we're responsible for set up, administration, supplying terrain, marketing etc etc.

What if the game is not well liked by the participants or the terrain wasn't up to demo game standards? Do the players then carp and cause grief because the individual went to great effort to provide fun and entertainment for othersbut got paid for it? Opens a nasty can of worms. If the motivation isn't to share some fun, a new period, a different set of rules etc. then it's really not worth it. Just as expensive, though less of a hassle, to attend as to GM.

Giving GMs free admission is an extremely modest and simple show of appreciation, and I think this whole debate is kind of petty and foolish.

First, people keep throwing around comments about stopping "abuse," but still not a shred of evidence or single example of such "abuse." I sincerely doubt there is much "abuse," and almost certainly, any enforcement scheme designed to root out the "abuse" would cost 50 times what it saved.

The various alternatives proposed, other than just eliminating GM appreciation entirely, are all much more complex and cumbersome. Why replace something simple that also works well?

I think the financial argument is also disingenuous. These conventions were comfortably profitable for many years until HMGS decided to start throwing money away at an accelerated pace. How about the organization just goes back to reasonably responsible management and doesn't wring the cost of their foolishness out of the GMs who work hard to put on good events?

Well said, Civil! I feel the same way.

I also bet that a lot of the guys who are so gung-ho to do away with GM free admission have rarely if ever hosted a game at the con. Seems like sour grapes to me.

Dear History Gamer

The Help Desk was not a bad idea. The GM compensation was.

I suppose, in a way, it depends on the individual motivation of the GM. I put on games because I enjoy doing so. I enjoy working with a group of friends to research, put together and run a scenario. Our "payment" comes when the gamers enjoy the experience and sign up at future cons. Running a game at a con isnt a job for me but an enjoyable part of the hobby as much as playing in games at one.

Lost sometimes in this is there is already a trade off. Those putting on a convention have to pay for the space and usually rent the tables. They in turn provide a venue most GMs can not duplicate. So both get something in return already.

I suppose if it is strictly a for profit business running a convention then perhaps free admission for GMs might be expected. But for most clubs and the like it creates too many complications.

Well, for our two conventions (and one 'affiliate show')
locals do the work (scheduling, dealer outreach, promo,
game solicitation, set-up, tear-down, venue negotiation,
cleanup and co-ordinating with other groups) in addition
to running games and we all pay admission, and no one
gets 'staff perks'. That's because we're a small show in
a good but not cheap venue.

Profits – well, we do finish *slightly* in the black,
*most* years and we do make contributions to charities
(MS, JDRF, an orphanage). No one is making money on the
effort of GM's or dealers who support our shows.
I try to thank each one personally, but don't always make
it. Apologies.

Other costs – and these are 'self inflicted'. We spend
money on *good* raffle prizes and have others donated by
attendees, GM's/Gamers/Dealers. We usually have over
$2,000 USD in value to raffle off, and generally 40 or
so prizes. At a ticket cost of $1 USD each, it is a sort
of 'perk' to be able to seek a good prize at such a low
cost. The second piece of the raffle is the 'second
chance' element. All the losing tix are put aside and
at the end of the raffle we draw other tix which each
get Dealer Dollar certificates worth $50 USD to spend at our
attending dealers.

BTW, GM's do get free raffle tix for running games, so
there is a tiny bit of compensation. One of my favorite
con stories is the GM (Nazrat knows the person) who used
the tix on a (IIRC) $200 USD WH prize and won it ! She
didn't buy any other tix.

There are folks who want to come but dislike, on principle
the idea of paying to come. In those cases, we can
usually find a sponsor for the modest cost ($20/we). If
we can't, so be it I usually sponsor 2-3 for each show.

I've never sought and in fact have refused compensation
for running games. But that's just me – others are
perfectly welcome to do as they feel is appropriate, of
course.

In a year or two, we'll be doing our 50th event. If
anyone is inclined, drop me an e-mail as to how we can
make it a most special show !

I like to give something for the effort, but it must be a real effort that is given to run the game.

@nazrat,

I swore I wouldn't join this conversation as I did the CW one, but as one of the gung-ho whiners who would like to do away with the "entitlement," please note that I put on between two and three games at each of the three HMGS East cons each year, every year. Below is a link where you can see for yourself one of my recent pathetic and minimal efforts, direct from Historicon 2011. Click on an image and it will give you a bigger jpg so you can see how absolutely lazy I am at such an endeavor.

link

Most of the folks who agree with my perspective also GM and do quite a bit better than I do. Hopefully they deserve to whine.

Regards, Bill Gray
ageofeagles.com

Hmmm, maybe we should ask this question?

Is this only an issue at the HMGS-E size conventions?

The local cons with only a couple hundred people I certainly do not expect to get in free, and I do not hear others complain either.

When I GM at Origins I do expect compensation commensurate to the effort. Now I am certain I would run a game or two anyway, but certainly not the amount I do now. They also have a reasonable system in place to monitor both the effort and the quality (they check the fact that it runs and the fill rate of players). But it tends to be reactive…. i.e. they cannot prevent a crappy game, but they will theoretically prevent a repeat by the same GM the following year. They pretty much have to do this due to the sheer size of this convention, plus it is not a miniatures only convention.

Now the HMGS-E conventions fall in between. They are certainly bigger than a local club convention, but not quite so big as an Origins or Gen Con type event.

Does this fall into the "gap"? i.e. too big to expect the friendly "everyone knows everybody club environment" of the small convention, and too small to justify a complex system for compensating volunteers or GMs?

Next question:
How do you control quality at such an event? First, with no way to monitor it, and second without compensation, you really have no right to turn a GM away if they ask to run a game. Do you? I mean even if you (the event manager) know their game will be disappointing or poorly presented, what right do you have to turn them down without some objective measure?

Now this does not count pick-up Games… I mean the ones that end up in the program. Ones people can pre-register to play for example.

@ Colonel Bill,

Looks like a great game!

Note I said "most" not all and NEVER said anything about whining or that anybody that did GM did a substandard job or was lazy in any way. Please don't put words in my mouth. It seems you are spoiling for a fight over this but I'm not biting… it's just an opinion after all.

But I will say that I don't ever buy the "all my friends feel the same way" type arguments. Speak for yourself, as all those guys may or may not really feel that way or even exist for all we know! 8)=

Jerry

"I also bet that a lot of the guys who are so gung-ho to do away with GM free admission have rarely if ever hosted a game at the con."
nazrat, what does this have to do with the question? I thought the question was a straight forward do you feel a gm should be compensated.

"How do you control quality at such an event? First, with no way to monitor it, and second without compensation, you really have no right to turn a GM away if they ask to run a game. Do you? I mean even if you (the event manager) know their game will be disappointing or poorly presented, what right do you have to turn them down without some objective measure?"

Who decides what's a"crappy" game? Let's face it, everybody has a different view of what a great game is-- for example if I was the judge of that then almost all the DBA games would be turned away as I don't like the rules and many of the games are played on boards with felt hills and woods and no actual scenery. But what rules -I- like shouldn't enter into it and the guys playing on those not-so-elaborate tables are having a super time. Another guy might ban all fantasy and SF games, even if they had the most beautiful table you can imagine (and many do) because they feel that those sort of games are "crappy" and have no place at a primarily historical convention.

It's too subjective of a situation and I for one would HATE to be the guy who turned away anybody from the con on those sort of grounds. They would probably end up getting ticked off and never attending again and that would negatively affect the convention in the long run.

The bottom line is that all the tables at HMGS events are rarely filled so why should it be an issue?

Disco,

Just a comment. Do all your conversations/discussions never ask any related questions? Mine do!

nazrat, when a simple question is asked do you always take everything to the extreme? Mine don't.