"Royal Marine Artillery" Topic

I was chatting on another forum (Napoleon Series) about how the British Royal Marine Artillery moved their guns.

The Royal Marines normally served in small detachments on ships and the Royal Marine Artillery normally manned bomb vessels, but the Royal Marines did deploy a full battalion to the Peninsula and later three battalions to North America (one of the latter being half colonial marines (freed slaves).

Each of these deployed battalions was accompanied by a Royal Marine Artillery company (81 all ranks) with 6-8 guns) plus a rocket half company (only 25 all ranks so really one-third company strength). These apparently had no established means to move their guns but clearly found some way to do so since Royal Marine Artillery Companies fought at Plattsburg, Bladensburg and the march on Washington, plus many other actions.

The obvious options seem to have been to borrow horse teams from the Royal Artillery or requisition local horses. However a third option is possible, and that is that they used Royal Navy sailors to pull them This was what Wolfe's gunners did up the Foulon path to the Plains of Abraham at Quebec in 1759 and also what the Naval Brigade did in South Africa in 1899 (still commemorated today in the Naval Field Gun Run competition).

It occurs to me that this would make an unusual model, gun and limber pulled by 8 seamen, rather than by 4 horses. I am certainly considering it.

Rod

That would make for an interesting modelling subject, and should be especially suitable for naval landings.

For the War of 1812, though, given the longish distances and the likely availability of horse teams from the many farms in the area, requisitioning local horses seems more likely.

In "Amateurs, to Arms!" by John Elting there is the following passage about the troops that would take part at Bladensburg:

"To these (the Royal Marines, and Royal Marine Artillery), Cochrane added 100 Royal Navy gunners and approximately 275 bluejackets to carry and tow reserve supplies and ammunition." pg. 207

I'd gather you would not be wrong with sailors doing what sailors do best…pulling on ropes!

Rod,

Do you have Dickson's memoir from the 1815 campaign, and lacking that, how about Robin Reilly's The British at the Gates? Naval manpower was used to both get the British artillery ashore and in position in front of the American defenses at Chalmette.

Do you know how many Royal Marine Artillery units were employed ashore in North America in 1814? I know of three that were landed and employeed as rocket detachments, and they manned other ordnance, such as mortars, in the New Orleans campaign.

The Royal Marine Artillery detachment at New Orleans numbered 1 officer and 26 men who manned the three mortars (5.5-inch brass with 20 rounds each), the officer being Captain Lawrence. There were 3 officers and 39 sailors with them to 'assist.' The entire artillery contingent had 64 horses to handle 12 pieces of ordnance.

For modelling purposes, using mortars and sling carts, etc., that would usually have been employed to move siege ordnance would be interesting to make and display.

For Ross's force that was engaged in the battles of Bladensburg and North Point, there were three artillery companies, all Royal Artillery (comanded by Captains Mitchell, Carmichael, and Crawford) and a 'rocket detachments' commanded by Captain Deacon who was also Royal Artillery.

However, it does appear that the British rocket units at Bladensburg were Royal Marine Artillery, not Royal Artillery.

I hope this helps a little, but I haven't found any field pieces or field artillery companies, that were not rockets, manned by Royal Marine Artillery.

For transport of rockets in the field I would highly recommend taking a look at Congreve's book on the rocket system.

Sincerely,
Kevin

10th Marines; thanks for the info, I will follow it up.
Rod; thanks for the question an interesting topic. I plan to use a naval landing party as infantry and prime movers for guns at Bladensburg and North Point.

A RMA rocket section under Sgt Austin was in action at the Battle of Lundy's Lane as part of the Niagara 1814 campaign.

Re dispalying mortars and teams I have a 25mm Hinchliffe coehorn mortar and team that I bought about a year ago for my future Battle of New Orleans. Here is a link to it;

Forgive me for changing the topic slighlty; re RM Battalions, does anyone have any definitive info as to whether or not they carried colours? There have been some previous threads on this topic but nothing definitive.

Rod,

Do you have Dickson's memoir from the 1815 campaign, and lacking that, how about Robin Reilly's The British at the Gates? Naval manpower was used to both get the British artillery ashore and in position in front of the American defenses at Chalmette.

Do you know how many Royal Marine Artillery units were employed ashore in North America in 1814? I know of three that were landed and employeed as rocket detachments, and they manned other ordnance, such as mortars, in the New Orleans campaign.

The Royal Marine Artillery detachment at New Orleans numbered 1 officer and 26 men who manned the three mortars (5.5-inch brass with 20 rounds each), the officer being Captain Lawrence. There were 3 officers and 39 sailors with them to 'assist.' The entire artillery contingent had 64 horses to handle 12 pieces of ordnance.

For modelling purposes, using mortars and sling carts, etc., that would usually have been employed to move siege ordnance would be interesting to make and display.

For Ross's force that was engaged in the battles of Bladensburg and North Point, there were three artillery companies, all Royal Artillery (comanded by Captains Mitchell, Carmichael, and Crawford) and a 'rocket detachments' commanded by Captain Deacon who was also Royal Artillery.

However, it does appear that the British rocket units at Bladensburg were Royal Marine Artillery, not Royal Artillery.

I hope this helps a little, but I haven't found any field pieces or field artillery companies, that were not rockets, manned by Royal Marine Artillery.

For transport of rockets in the field I would highly recommend taking a look at Congreve's book on the rocket system.

Sincerely,
Kevin

Hi Kevin,

Good to chat. Missed you on the Napoleon Series forum.

I have Dickson's Manuscripts 1809-1813, but not later. I also have Congreve's booklet on the Rocket System. I do not have Robin Reilly's book.

I took my information on Royal Marine Artillery from:

Encyclopedia of the War of 1812 by David Stephen Heidler and Jeanne T Heidler (published 2004). Royal Marine Artillery is on pages 23 – 24, which can be seen in the preview. It gives lots of detail of all the units.

Google book link is:

link

<<Forgive me for changing the topic slighlty; re RM Battalions, does anyone have any definitive info as to whether or not they carried colours? There have been some previous threads on this topic but nothing definitive.>>

I've been looking into the history of RM field battalions in the Napoleonic Wars for some years and not come across anything on colours. On that basis, I would suggest that the answer is "probably not".

{Now watch someone come straight back and prove me wrong!}

Supercilious Maximus wrote:

I've been looking into the history of RM field battalions in the Napoleonic Wars for some years and not come across anything on colours. On that basis, I would suggest that the answer is "probably not".

{Now watch someone come straight back and prove me wrong!}

Brian Lavery in Nelson's Navy (page 136) says "Each of the Marine Divisions had a set of colours, similar to those of Army regiments….They were mostly used for peacetime parades, but there is some evidence that the Portsmouth colours were carried by the Second Battalion in Spain in 1812."

I have no idea what that evidence was, but for wargaming purposes it is good enough for me to give them colours.

Rod

Does anyone know if the elite companies (grenadiers & lights) were ever deployed on board ships or if they were restricted to the full battalions deployed on land?

bjporter wrote:

Does anyone know if the elite companies (grenadiers & lights) were ever deployed on board ships or if they were restricted to the full battalions deployed on land?

According to Brian Lavery "Nelson's Navy" (page 148) these elite companies were abolished in 1804, so could not have served with the Royal Marine battalions in the Peninsula or or North America. I am unaware of Royal Marine battalions being deployed anywhere before 1810.

Rod

Rod,

Great to hear from you to. I highly recommend Robin Reilly's account on New Orleans-it is excellent.

If I can find my copy of Dickson's papers from 1815 I would be glad to scan and send them to you.

My home email is Boulart198@yahoo.com

Sincerely,
Kevin

Kevin,

I have e-mailed you directly regarding Dickson.

I will look for the Reilly book.

Rod

The Marines and sailors put ashore at Santa Cruz de Tenerife in 1797 appear to have carried ships' jacks as colours. Guittierez allowed the Marines trapped in the Plaza de Espana to withdraw to their ships with full honours 'and colours flying'. The Spanish had already captured a couple of jacks, which are now on display at the Tenerife Military Museum in the Almeida Fort – one of which (of an unusual design) has the frigate's name ('EMERALD') stitched across the horzontal bar of the St George's Cross.

(Incidentally, the Marines weren't 'Royal' until 1802)

The design of colours followed that of the army.

Note that the proportions of the central design of the 1810 RM colour are correct in relation to the rest of the design.

Most modern representations of British colours have a central design that is far too large.

Rod,

Thanks, I should have made it clearer that I meant being carried in the field, rather than the "back office" pairs for each of the three, later four, Divisions. I suspect that the "evidence" is a bit like the "evidence" that the two Marine battalions formed in the AWI "carried colours" – ie it sounds like they might have done.

The 2nd Bn in Spain was composed of a mix of companies from Chatham and Portsmouth, whereas the 1st Bn was an all-Plymouth unit, so if anything it seems the less likely of the two to have a set of colours at all. (The 1st was was originally formed as part of the garrison for Lisbon, so had no real need for them.)

Supercilius Maximus,

I am confused by you last posting; isn't this a contradiction to your posting in circa Aug 2004; 18th Century Discussion Board – Discussion: Royal Marines in the Boston Campaign?

TMP link

Semper Fi
Jarhead

Mawines?
Awtiwewy?

Good lord, what will they think of next?

PDF link

link

<<I am confused by you last posting; isn't this a contradiction to your posting in circa Aug 2004; 18th Century Discussion Board – Discussion: Royal Marines in the Boston Campaign?>>

My apologies, although I don't see where the confusion lies. I was referring above to (Napoleonic) colours being actually carried in the field; not just issued to a unit serving in the field, but actually carried into action.

My 2004 post said the set auctioned at Christie's in 1912 were reputed to be of AWI vintage and were "believed" to have been carried at Lexington and Bunker Hill. There is no actual evidence that they were, just the story that went with the auctioned set. In fact, no account of Bunker Hill from either side mentions colours being carried by any British unit at all. (Not conclusive, admittedly, but rather odd.)