"Russian Combined Grenadier Battalions " Topic

Putting together Russian 8th Corps for Borodino in 10mm

1.Would the Combined Grenadier Battalions look the same as regular Grenadier Battalion?

2.Would The 49th and 50th JR be used as skirmishers or would they have been used the same as line infantry? (Do I base them as skirmishers or as line?)

Thanks Yet Again
Ben

Hi wingleader

Here's Gingerich's OB showing which units contributed to which Combined Grenadier Bns

2d Converged Grenadier Division: 243/3816
Maj. Gen. Count Vorontsov (WIA Sept. 7), then
Maj. (senior adj. Wladimir IR) A. I. Dunayev-1 (WIA Sept. 7)

1st Brigade

1st Converged Grenadier Battalion of the 7th Div.: Maj. (Pskov IR) A. B. Diedrich (WIA Sept. 7)
2d grenadier companies of the Pskov, Moscow & 36th Jaeger Regt.s

2d Converged Grenadier Battalion of the 7th Div.: Maj. (Moscow IR) U. I. Probst (WIA Sept. 7)
2d grenadier companies of the Libau, Sofiya, & 11th Jaeger Regt.s

1st Converged Grenadier Battalion of the 24th Div.:
Maj. (cdr. 19th Jaeger) P. I Prigara-2 (WIA/KIA Sept. 7), then
Capt. (Butyrki IR) I. I. Babarykov (WIA Sept. 7)
2d grenadier companies of the Butyrki, Tomsk, & 19th Jaeger Regt.s

2d Converged Grenadier Battalion of the 24th Div.:
Maj. (40th Jaeger) A. I. Gebel
2d grenadier companies of the Ufa, Shirvan, & 40th Jaeger Regt.s

2d Brigade (first three battalions commanded by Maj. Gebel by end of battle)

1st Converged Grenadier Battalion of the 12th Div.: Maj. (6th Jaeger) Migay-1 (KIA Sept. 7)
2d grenadier companies of the Smolensk, Narva, & 6th Jaeger Regt.s

2d Converged Grenadier Battalion of the 12th Div.: Maj. (New Ingermanland IR) S. F. Wrangel (WIA Sept. 7)
2d gren. coy.s of the Aleksopol, New Ingermanland, & 41st Jaeger Regt.s

2d Converged Grenadier Battalion of the 26th Div.: Maj.(42d Jaeger) I. M. Trubcheninov-4 (WIA Sept. 7) (until Sept. 7 escort of 2d Western Army HQ)
2d grenadier companies of the Poltava & 5th and 42d Jaeger Regt.s

1st Converged Grenadier Battalion of the 2d Div.: Maj. (Astrakhan Grenadier) I. P. Freiberg (WIA Sept. 7)
2d grenadier companies of the Kiev, Moscow, & Astrakhan Grenadier Regt.s

2d Converged Grenadier Battalion of the 2d Div.:
Maj. (Phanagoria Grenadier) I. I. Manyukin-2 (KIA Sept. 7), then
Maj. (Siberia Grenadier) M. K. Pisarenkov (WIA Sept. 7)
2d gren. coy.s of the Phanagoria, Little Russia, & Siberia Grenadier Regt.s

1st Converged Grenadier Battalion of the 27th Div.: Maj. (Odessa IR) M. I. Karpov-1 (WIA Sept. 7)
2d grenadier companies of the Odessa, Ternapol, & 49th Jaeger Regt.s

2d Converged Grenadier Battalion of the 27th Div.: Maj. (Vilna IR) G. T. Fedorov-1
2d gren. coy.s of the Vilna, Simbirsk, & 50th Jaeger Regt.s

As for uniforms, they ought to be the same as any other Grenadiers with a couple of exceptions

- I imagine the elite companies of the Eger regiments would be equipped as Egers, ie black belts, green trousers, but don't know for sure – anyone?

- pompoms. The Comb Grens were all taken from the 'depot' 2nd Bn of each regiment. See pompoms etc explained here-

link

According to Nafziger's map the 49th and 50th Eger were in skirmish order, but of course capable of either.

Oh and the Comb. Grens. carried the flag of the senior contributing infantry regiment.

thanks for that info Timbow… Just what i was looking for

More here on Russian Grenadiers TMP link

Question: were the Grenadier battalions really better than the line battalions or were they pretty much the same?

Ben,

Not readily apparent from Timbo's fine OB list, but the converged grenadier battalions only had three companies while the line grenadier battalions had four companies.

Jim

Quite right ColCampbell,

Quality? Debatable I suppose. Certainly they seem to have performed as well as the line, but whether significantly better I don't know.

I've thought of rating them as more enthusiastic (due to wishing to prove their 'eliteness') but less skilled (eg, drill, shooting, due to being less experienced). Though this has no basis in reality I can think of!

See also here

TMP link

In short a Combined Grenadier unit is 3/4 the size of a normal battalion 18 against 24 figs, or 24 against 32, depending on your figure to man ratio. 3 companies instead of 4.

Two companies are from Infantry (Musketeer) Btns, one is from a Jager Btn, so White and Black straps and other distinctives. Pompoms as for 2nd btn as described above.

There are two combined btns per regiment, one company from the 1st 3rd and 5th regiments of the division, one each from the 2nd 4th and 6th… so shoulder straps will vary too.

I have read somewhere that only one platoon of the jagers would have worn plumes. there is also debate about whether the jagers fixed bayonets…

As for Quality, I have always assumed they are no better than line, personally I do not use my jager companies as skirmishers but would argue for your right to do so if you wish.

See Mark Conrad's translation of the Viskovatov documents for more stuff.

rabbit