"Townsville mutinity." Topic

There is also this link While the Exercise Tiger disaster was made public after the allies were safely ashore in Normandy, the brass is still tight lipped about friendly fire in training.

Let's see:
41st Tank Battalion Organized August 42, arrived UK October 44, entered combat December 20th

The 81st Armor Regiment activated on 1 October 1941 arrived Utah beach July 26th 44 In combat August 1st

741st Tank Battalion activated 15 March 1942. Entered combat June 6th 44

772nd Tank Battalion formed 20 September 1943 sent to ETO 26 January 1945 arrived at Le Havre, France 8 February. In combat March 29th

37th Tank Battalion organized 13 January 1941, sailed for ETO 29 December 1943, in combat July 44

Looks like the 761st had the same amount of training as these (and many other) units.

Adding in the 761st Tank Battalion makes six (6) such units out of how many total? This would be an interesting aspect to research further… just what was the average length of time from training to combat deployment for US Tank Battalions?

Like I need yet another research assignment at the moment…

Leland R. Erickson
(who is currently neck deep in the discipline of Area Studies Analysis focusing on of all places "scenic" Kazakhstan…)

the brass is still tight lipped about friendly fire in training.

Sadly, yes. Such incidents are best dragged out into the light of day IMHO, the better to perhaps learn from the mistakes of past generations… and avoid repeating them.

The allegations of a coverup of this debacle reminds me of the eyewitness reports from Holland of how during the Five Days Battle (1940) German troops were observed trying to conceal their losses from both the locals and their own men by hiding the wounded in closed trains or trucks and having a man with an accordion or other musical instrument in each truck playing to cover the groans and cries of the wounded, and of cadavers of German soldats being hung on meat hooks packed like so many butchered hogs in a meat packing plant.

Too often military establishments are more concerned with avoiding public embarrassment than they are with getting things right (am I the only one here who has read up on the Dreyfus Affair?)…

Leland R. Erickson

Leland

If you're really interested in further research then this site is a good start. link

cheers

"Adding in the 761st Tank Battalion makes six (6) such units out of how many total?"

No idea my friend; maybe someone else knows how many tank units the US Army fielded in WWII, but I suspect the story is going to be the same as it takes months to train a soldier but a heck of a lot longer to train an effective, cohesive fighting unit. That the 761st was such a fine outfit shows they learned well and put their training to good use. The average time for US units does seem to be around two years from organization to deployment. Here are two more examples:

The 746th Tank Battalion was activated on August 20, 1942 at Camp Rucker, Alabama. The initial activating officers came from an existing unit, the 760th Tank Battalion; and the initial cadre of enlisted men came from the existing 70th Tank Battalion. In time, the Battalion grew to its assigned strength of 750 men through assignments of new personnel from the Armor School at Fort Knox, Kentucky and from various units throughout the country. ( Many of the young recruits were drawn from Texas and Louisiana). The 746th underwent extensive training at Camp Rucker, Alabama until late summer of 1943. It then moved to Camp Pickett, Virginia for final preparations for embarkation overseas. At the end of January 1944, the Battalion boarded the U.S.S Acquantia and sailed from New York to England. There it was assigned to Headquarters, European Theater of Operations (ETO). It was further assigned to the United States First Army and was based in Fairford, England. At Fairford, the Battalion received advanced training for what everyone expected to be an assault on the European continent. The 746th Tank Battalion was committed into action with an assault landing in Normandy, France (Utah Beach) on D-Day, the 6th of June 1944.

The 3rd Armored division was activated on 15 April 1941 at Camp Beauregard, Louisiana. In June 1941, it moved to Camp Polk Louisiana (now Fort Polk). On 9 March 1942, it came under Army Ground Forces and was assigned to the II Armored Corps. In July 1942, it was transferred to Camp Young, CA and from August to October 1942, took part in maneuvers at the Desert Training Center. It left Camp Young in January 1943 and moved to the Indiantown Gap Military Reservation, Pennsylvania. The 3rd AD arrived in the European Theatre on 15 September 1943, conducting pre-invasion training in the Liverpool and Bristol areas. It remained in Somerset, England until 24 June 1944, when it departed to partake in the Normandy operations.

Leland

If you're really interested in further research then this site is a good start. link

cheers

Killer,

indeed I am interested; *primary* source documents always get my attention… like throwing a 20 lb. piece of raw meat to a hungry wolverine…

Many thanks!

Leland R. Erickson

That the 761st was such a fine outfit shows they learned well and put their training to good use. The average time for US units does seem to be around two years from organization to deployment.

The 761st also had the critical benefit of having a CO who actually believed in his men, and treated them like men fully capable of doing their jobs to the fullest. By all accounts Lt. Col. Paul L. Bates was by all accounts a fair-minded man who delighted in showing off what his men could do in training maneuvers, and was ready, willing, and able to lead them into combat. Bates stood by his men even at the risk of his own career, being ridiculed by some of his peers for leading an all-Black unit. Contrast this with the likes of the CO of the 92nd Division, who essentially and openly all but *despised* his men, and whose white commissioned rank subordinates were too often the veritable openly racist dregs of the US Army officer corps.

The 761st was constituted on March 15, 1942 and activated April 1, 1942. Source:

link

According to this article white units were being trained an average of two-three months before being sent overseas:

link

Here's the official website of the 761st Tank Battalion:

761st.com

What always hits me again and again after studying the segregated units of the US Armed Forces during the two World Wars these past 20+ years is how well so many of them did in combat *despite* all of the grief and obstacles thrown in their faces on an often daily basis. I am especially amazed at the 442nd RCT, whose members often times had family back home locked up in the internment camps, yet there they were, risking their lives for their country, and doing so with such courage, fortitude, and yes, heroism.

I regard such as the very best of what Americans are really all about, keeping faith with our country and its very best ideals even when that country may not be keeping faith with us.

Now you'll all excuse me as I return to immersing myself in reports on the various data concerning scenic Kazakhstan (cue Borat singing his take on the Kazakhstani national anthem… Arrghh!).

Leland R. Erickson

GNREP8

And not just the reports of the Queensland police, apparently, but also the Brigade diary of the 29th Brigade, a first hand account of an Australian digger who took part in operations to suppress the mutiny, and the detailed account in the LBJ library.

Seems pretty conclusive to me.

Interesting account here,

PDF link

Robert

"No idea my friend; maybe someone else knows how many tank units the US Army fielded in WWII"

The US Army raised a total of 65 Independent Tank Battalions (does NOT include Tank Battalions that were part of an Armored Division) by the end of 1944 with a further 29 forming.

Leland, with all due respect, the link you posted says this

"The men of the 761st trained for almost two years, conscious of the fact that white units were being sent overseas after as little as two or three months. " No references, source or documentation – just a bland meaningless (and misleading) statement. What units were these? What time period? Where were they sent?

If you apply the same standards to this as you personally apply to the reports of the Townsville incident, then it's clearly unsubstantiated nonsense.

In 1941, the training length was standardized in the combat arms at thirteen weeks – that's just to get fit, march in step, salute and learn which end of the rifle the bayonet goes on. In 1943 it was increased to seventeen weeks.

While it's true that some infantry replacements were sent straight from basic into combat under the disastrous 'ripple dipple' system – and some of those even found themselves having to serve as loaders or gunners in a Sherman, the idea that whole units were sent into combat after eight or twelve weeks in uniform because of some racist agenda is total garbage.

And if the 761st had been rushed into combat with less training than comparable white units, that would have been racist too wouldn't it?

Leland, with all due respect, the link you posted says this

"The men of the 761st trained for almost two years, conscious of the fact that white units were being sent overseas after as little as two or three months. " No references, source or documentation – just a bland meaningless (and misleading) statement. What units were these? What time period? Where were they sent?

I agree. I would love to know the source of that claim too. It *is* however plausible given the context of the opposition at the time to the very of Black men serving as tankers in the US Army.

You have to admit that the 761st *was* part of a racially-segregated Army structure, and that *did* directly and demonstrably-to-death affect how they were treated and how and when they were employed. You cannot get past that with any of all-Black units including the 332nd (held 100 miles behind the front lines and their "lack of combat" was used as a club by their detractors to attempt to end the "experiment"), the 92nd Division, et al. Only the 442nd RCT/100th Infantry were not IIRC held back from combat for such reasons, but that may be circumstantial and the fact that the niseis were not subject to Jim Crow as a matter of daily course.

In 1941, the training length was standardized in the combat arms at thirteen weeks – that's just to get fit, march in step, salute and learn which end of the rifle the bayonet goes on. In 1943 it was increased to seventeen weeks.

I know of that training standard, as among other things my late father -WW2 US Marine- had according to his accounts a bit less training than that as a Marine rifleman before being thrown on a tramp steamer-turned-military-transport and shipped off to the scenic PTO in 1942 with his M1 "trench helmet" and Springfield rifle stamped "1917"…

While it's true that some infantry replacements were sent straight from basic into combat under the disastrous 'ripple dipple' system – and some of those even found themselves having to serve as loaders or gunners in a Sherman, the idea that whole units were sent into combat after eight or twelve weeks in uniform because of some racist agenda is total garbage.

And again, the curve ball being thrown the way of the 761st and the other all-Black combat units was *not* being thrown at the all-White units, and that is a matter of overwhelming historical record, I think you'll agree. One has to keep that *in context,* and I know it is hard for us to imagine today, privileged as we are in the 21st century Western civilization that we live in to forget just how pervasive racial discrimination and Jim Crow codified segregation was in the 1940s and what life was like on a daily basis for those who had to endure the indignities of being second-class citizens, and regarded in the conventional wisdom of the day as "racially inferior" on every level.

I for one really do try my best not to judge the past through modern eyes, and keep historical events and the people who made and lived them in the context of their time and place… it ain't easy, but I do try…

And if the 761st had been rushed into combat with less training than comparable white units, that would have been racist too wouldn't it?

Given the poor training standards the 92nd Infantry Division was held to before being committed to combat in Italy, I have to agree with you, as the net effect was the same; poorly-trained troops thrown into battle and they suffered accordingly (and were castigated for their "cowardice" all too predictably by their white officers who blamed their men for any of their own failings as a matter of course).

It seems in hindsight that the more the MOS fit the stereotyping assumptions of the White officer corps, the more likely the Black troops were committed to overseas duty (including combat) sooner, yet the contradiction was that those who fit the stereotype the closest – ie., infantry- were given the poorer level of training than their White counterparts, while those in the more technical MOS such as armor or fighter aircraft were kept away from the action as much as possible as long as possible until they were finally given a break by circumstances and the brass had to give in due to a desperate need for trained, ready-to-roll armor and fighter units. As the brass couldn't justify just keeping the pilots and tankers in barracks all day long, they had to justify their existence, so train they did, and IMHO the results of that extra training paid off accordingly when the 332nd FG and 761st Tank Battalion were finally allowed to show what they were made of.

Leland R. Erickson

Nobody here has denied the ugly fact of a racially segregated US Army or ever said it was a good thing. We all agree that racism in and out of the military was wrong on every level and – ironically – the thing we were fighting against in WW2.

Marine Corps training was different to the army,but for more on that (and lots of other great USMC information) check out the WWII Gyrene site here link Looks like your Dad did just five weeks basic at San Diego before shipping out. Five weeks….and they wonder why we call them the Greatest Generation?

Nobody here has denied the ugly fact of a racially segregated US Army or ever said it was a good thing. We all agree that racism in and out of the military was wrong on every level and – ironically – the thing we were fighting against in WW2.

And all I've been going on about is *context,* along with the old saw about how it is the cardinal sin of the historian to judge the past through modern eyes…

Marine Corps training was different to the army,but for more on that (and lots of other great USMC information) check out the WWII Gyrene site here link Looks like your Dad did just five weeks basic at San Diego before shipping out. Five weeks….and they wonder why we call them the Greatest Generation?

Dad said that when he and his fellow 18-year-old volunteers arrived for Basic, there was black smoke coming from the harbor as an IJN submarine had just amused itself by blowing up an oil storage tank in the harbor with its deck gun, then scooting off over the horizon (its captain and crew laughing maniacally no doubt at the "impotent Americans"…).

Dad said that "The Speech" he and his fellow boots received just as soon as the instructor corporals could run them all off the bus and herd them into a semblance of a straight line was as follows, delivered by a lean, incredibly mean carnosaur-of-an-excuse-for-humanity of a China Hand gunnery sergeant in an immaculate uniform and razor-sharp USMC Campaign Hat,

"YOU MEN JUST SIGNED AWAY EVERY RIGHT YOU EVER HAD! I…OWN…YOU!!!"

Dad said that was it. That was "The Speech." Dad also said "We knew he meant every word! He wasn't kidding!"

Dad also said he and his group "…never gave that man any trouble at all; we knew there was a war on, and that our drill instructor wasn't playing around!"

Indeed. The Greatest Generation in so many ways.

Leland R. Erickson

Proud Son of a WW2 US Marine

Another black unit that had an interesting tour was the 555th Parachute Infantry Battalion. Nicknamed the "Triple Nickles". They spent the war working as smoke jumpers putting out forest fires in the pacific northwest from the Japanese Balloon Bombs.

You could always do them up for what ever rule system you use.

link
triplenickle.com
link
ftbragg555thpia.com/id1.html
YouTube link

lwfaam.net/ww2
link
Some of the most notable African American Army units which served in World War II were:

92nd Infantry Division
366th Infantry Regiment

93rd Infantry Division
369th Infantry Regiment
370th Infantry Regiment
371st Infantry Regiment

2nd Cavalry Division
4th Cavalry Brigade
9th Cavalry Regiment
10th Cavalry Regiment

5th Cavalry Brigade
27th Cavalry Regiment
28th Cavalry Regiment

Air Corps Units
332d Fighter Group (Tuskegee Airmen)

Non Divisional Units
Infantry Units
555th Parachute Infantry Battalion

Cavalry/Armor Units
US Military Academy Cavalry Squadron
5th Reconnaissance Squadron
758th Tank Battalion
761st Tank Battalion
784th Tank Battalion

Field Artillery Units
46th Field Artillery Brigade
184th Field Artillery Regiment, Illinois National Guard.
333rd Field Artillery Regiment
349th Field Artillery Regiment
350th Field Artillery Regiment
351st Field Artillery Regiment
353rd Field Artillery Regiment
578th Field Artillery Regiment
333rd Field Artillery Battalion
349th Field Artillery Battalion
350th Field Artillery Battalion
351st Field Artillery Battalion
353rd Field Artillery Battalion
578th Field Artillery Battalion
593rd Field Artillery Battalion
594th Field Artillery Battalion
595th Field Artillery Battalion
596th Field Artillery Battalion
597th Field Artillery Battalion
598th Field Artillery Battalion
599th Field Artillery Battalion
600th Field Artillery Battalion
686th Field Artillery Battalion
777th Field Artillery Battalion
795th Field Artillery Battalion
930th Field Artillery Battalion, Illinois National Guard
931st Field Artillery Battalion, Illinois National Guard
969th Field Artillery Battalion
971st Field Artillery Battalion
973rd Field Artillery Battalion
993rd Field Artillery Battalion
999th Field Artillery Battlaion

Tank Destroyer Units:
614th Tank Destroyer Battalion
646th Tank Destroyer Battalion
649th Tank Destroyer Battalion
659th Tank Destroyer Battalion
669th Tank Destroyer Battalion
679th Tank Destroyer Battalion
795th Tank Destroyer Battalion
827th Tank Destroyer Battalion
828th Tank Destroyer Battalion
829th Tank Destroyer Battalion
846th Tank Destroyer Battalion

Two segregated units were organized by the United States Marine Corps:
51st Defense Battalion, 52nd Defense Battalion

I have posted a few times about Black troops in units the US Army. One of the that did quite well was Task Force 45 in Italy. Here is the thread I had created and posted about it,
TMP link

Robert