"Do "No Pre-Measuring" Rules Encourage Cheating?" Topic

Some rulesets prohibit players from making measurements on the tabletop prior to taking an action.

But if a player knows the length from his elbow to his fingertips, and happens to lean over the table…

Does the prohibition of pre-measuring encourage cheating?

When charts come in cubits and spans, I will worry about it.

And then some of us are just better at eyeballing distances than others.

I don't really care. So long as they don't pre-roll the dice…

Eric

No.

Gentlemen don't cheat

Nor, I am sure, do ladies

I was running a game where the players needed to guess the range for firing. Both side started at the table edge. The first team attempted to guess the distance and missed. The second team looked at the table (8 foot), their position after the first move (1 foot in), and their target after move (1 foot in). Dropped the rounds right on target. That rule didn't last long.

I've been playing ancients for 45 years and I don't think the 'pre-measuring rule' would make any difference: players don't cheat anyway.

Phil

We don't make a big deal about it – as noted, some people are better at measuring than others – plus, after a move or two, it ain't rocket science to figure out what the distances are – plus this for us this is mostly an issue for artillery use in WarHammer, and the Dice Gods are way harder to please!

I make a general announcement that if you feel you need to cheat to have a good time then go ahead. Just be forewarned that we all will know you are cheating and we will talk about you to everyone we meet and tell them what you did.

I always thought it was a stupid rule, for reasons mentioned by others. When I do rules, pre-measuring is explicitly allowed.

When charts come in cubits and spans, I will worry about it.

But my cubit *is* a perfect 18", hand span of 9", four fingers = 4"

I used this information to cheat once, since I had a real arseclown of an opponent that I wanted to crush.

Otherwise, after the first "guess" everything is learning from the miss, adding (or subtracting) variance, movement, etc. that it become pretty easy…

Pre measuring makes sense. Any soldier with a ranged weapon would know about how far they could shoot/throw it.

Cheating never needs encouragement. A person given to cheating in games is most likely a person that cheats in other areas of life.

Using other means to pre-measuring is just one form of cheating in a game.

Things I consider worst is bending the rules to allow a unit to do something it was never intended. Or, moving the ruler as they move their troops. Or, using different sets of dice, which have been rolled over and over again and then sorted in "these roll 6's" and "these roll 1's".

The worst form of cheating – taking advantage of new players to the point of total humiliation – or in gaming circle there called "baby killers".

Pre measuring makes sense. Any soldier with a ranged weapon would know about how far they could shoot/throw it.

Or any group that's had a chance to place range markers on the field (when was the last time you saw that in a game?) or at least some ranging shots.

The older I get, the less bans on measuring are fun/make sense.

No…unless your really serious and you must "win" everytime.
I guess it depends who your playing with – our group is very informal, so we really don't bother about the rule if applicable to the game/event.
I've been in a club where pre-measuring was a mortal sin.

Bottom line – I'm here to have fun!!!

P.

If someone is a cheater they will cheat regardless of the mechanism or system in use. Equally true is that 99%+ of the people I've met in the hobby wouldn't dream of cheating.

Cheating is a character issue. I don't believe it to be a function of rule mechanics.

I agree with anleiher. The only issue we've ever had is clarifying for new gamers which rules we play allow pre-measurement and which do not.

Rick

Rules don't encourage cheating. Being a cheater encourages cheating. If some people are better at eye-balling distance, well so be it. Some soldiers & sailors are good at that, too.

I don't call that cheating, I call it an application of mathematics. I'm sure real life commanders use all sorts of techniques to estimate distances so why shouldn't a gamer.

Range cards were always required in my units. That means we premeasured, it may have been cheating to the bad guys but I really don't like second place in war.

I do consider prerolling dice and inching units forward or back to gain an advantage not quite fair. That is unless it is allowed for both sides. It must fit the spirit of the game.

No.

A cheater is a cheater and will do so regardless of what rules are used.

A person given to cheating in games is most likely a person that cheats in other areas of life.

Sometimes.

But sometimes, a "cheater" is someone who just doesn't take the game all that seriously, and is having a fun time.

No

I find it encourages rage and little else, that's why I never game with my step-dad's group. They use the "no Pre-measure" AND "declare all actions before doing anything" crap. Half the time, before even finishing declaring actions, they forget the first few actions in larger games. My group however, plays pretty fast and loose. We stick to the rules, but we if we forgot one somewhere, we don't retroactively screw with the results, we just write a note "Don't forget this rule next time." and keep going.

I agree with others that cheating is a character issue not a rule issue.

Cheaters will always cheat, regardless of the rules.

Cheaters will always cheat, regardless of the rules.

And yet there are systems that favor cheating. I find the whole pre-measure angst absurd. People, and armies, have been pre-measuring ranges since missile weapons were invented.

Encourage me not to play such rules

Nope.
I think it enhances the game.

Premeasuring is for gamers who don't pay attention to distances during the movement and firing phases. Face it, you know the table size, the distance each side starts in from the edge at the being of the game, what the movement rates are for columns, lines and skirmish units, etc. Watching the opponent while keeping in mind your own movements should give the player a good idea of what can be done and what can't be done.

The only two times that come to mind that people really want to premeasure so that they don't waste a turn or come up short is with artillery fire and charges.

With one set of rules we used to play a lot I used to practice estimating distances – got pretty good at it too. Is that cheating ? Being able to look at two objects and estimate the distance between them to less than a 5mm error in 30cm ?

I concur with the general consensus that ultimately you can't litigate people to behave properly.