"Scale is Written..." Topic

15mm
15 mm
15MM
15 MM

15mm is a size, not a scale.

I don't give a toss if its misuse by the ignorant has given it the currency of 'scale' by default, it's still a bloody SIZE.

15mm is a size, not a scale.

I don't give a toss if its misuse by the ignorant has given it the currency of 'scale' by default, it's still a bloody SIZE.

And the proper SI abbreviation of 'millimetre' is 'mm'.

How the heck did you manage that John?

Hah! Beat you to it.
Or, one of the BUGS did.

I actually wrote
"It's not a sclae, it's a size!
I'll get my coat."

Then I went back in to EDIT my spelloing, and … well, we see what happened. Quite entertaining, wot?

BUGS rule.
Pedants drool.

I've edited my post, in the interests of variety.

In the interest of comedy, go back and fix it the way it was originally.

"We are now aproaching Jose Marti Airport. Please stow your weapons in the overhead racks. The duty-free shops are on the left side of the Grane Concourse. Thank you for flying PanAm."

To be a scale you have to define what 15mm is related to, e.g.:

15mm is 5'8" – This would be a precise scale.

15mm is the height of an average man (or some part of his body) – This is vague because how big an average man is depends on what population you are sampling but depending on how much precision you require perhaps not hopelessly so.

Without agreement on what it's related to, 15mm can't be a scale.

"We are now aproaching Jose Marti Airport. Please stow your weapons in the overhead racks. The duty-free shops are on the left side of the Grane Concourse. Thank you for flying PanAm."

Fix me a Cuba libre.

"Mikey, how do you say 'Cuba Libre' in Spanish?"
"Cuba Libre."

15mm is a size, not a scale.

I don't give a toss if its misuse by the ignorant has given it the currency of 'scale' by default, it's still a bloody SIZE.

Just thought I'd reiterate…

15mm is a size, not a scale.

Determined by previous poll to be a scale.

A TMP poll could determine that the Earth is flat, it still wouldn't make it so. :)

15mm

The sun rises in the East and sets in the West.

Phil

Determined by previous poll to be a scale.

Like any poll the result depends on the wording. I doubt a majority agree on what it means. You would likely at best get a plurality for '15mm is the height of an average late 20th-early 21st century Northern European male between the ages of 18 and 50 to the eyes in shoes with 1" heels', but it wouldn't be by much.

I prefer 15mm but would accept 15 mm. Capital MM mean something completely different.

x42

To get back to the original post, "15mm" is the official way to express it here.

To get back to the original post, "15mm" is the official way to express it here.

Ah, but that would be too easy.

Next week, how about a Poll about the value of pi?

Steak pi or apple pi?

28'mm:

I like pi.

Option E – all of those listed ways and more.

Here's a poll you could run, I think it has all the major positions covered.

‘X'mm

Is not a scale.

Is a scale and means ‘X' is proportional to 5'4"

Is a scale and means ‘X' is proportional to 5'6"

Is a scale and means ‘X' is proportional to 5'8"

Is a scale and means ‘X' is proportional to 5'10"

Is a scale and means ‘X' is proportional to 6'

Is a scale and means ‘X' is proportional to the height of an average man, standing straight, of the type and era being depicted from the base to the eye (where the head held so a line running from the chin to the front of the eye is perpendicular to the ground is considered head held level).

Is a scale and means ‘X' is proportional to the height of an average man of the type and era being depicted from the base to the top of the head.

Is a scale and means ‘X' is proportional to the height of an average man of the type and era being depicted from the sole of the foot to the eye etc.

Is a scale and means ‘X' is proportional to the height of an average man of the type and era being depicted from the sole of the foot to the top of the head.

Is a scale and means ‘X' is proportional to the height of an average modern (late 20th, early 21st century) Northern European male between 18 and 50 from the sole of the foot to the eye etc.

Is a scale and means ‘X' is proportional to the height of an average modern (late 20th, early 21st century) Northern European male between 18 and 50 from the sole of the foot to the top of the head.

Is a scale and means ‘X' is proportional to the height of an average man to the eyes and doesn't need to be defined any more precisely, i.e. it is a range of acceptable ratios without definite parameters.

Is a scale and means ‘X' is proportional to the height of an average man to the top of the head and doesn't need to be defined any more precisely.

You could also say mike mike.
Actually scale should be witten as a fraction, e.g., 1/76th or 1/87th.

Phil

If it were a size then all 15mm figures would be the same size – they are not.

Other uses of 'scale' (such as large/small scale) are comparative and this is how we should see the useage of '15mm' as a 'scale' – to compare it with '25mm' or '6mm' rather than as an accurate statement of a proportional relationship (which no wargaming figure ever has in all dimensions).

The answer is 15mm

Actually a scale should be written as a ratio 1:72 etc. but usage does vary in practice.

Armand writes it like this: 1/72mm

'When I use a word,' Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, 'it means just what I choose it to mean — neither more nor less.'

'The question is,' said Alice, 'whether you can make words mean so many different things.'

'The question is,' said Humpty Dumpty, 'which is to be master — that's all.'

If it were a size then all 15mm figures would be the same size

They are no more inconstant than women's dress sizes.

Other uses of 'scale' (such as large/small scale) are comparative and this is how we should see the useage of '15mm' as a 'scale' – to compare it with '25mm' or '6mm' rather than as an accurate statement of a proportional relationship (which no wargaming figure ever has in all dimensions).

So it's basically useless, I mean all it does is define by a negative. 15mm is not 18mm with neither one having any other relation? Isn't that like asking what size a house is and getting the answer "bigger than a breadbox"?

A bit too much like my wife's idea of a grocery list for my liking.

The objection of figures not being precisely to scale in all dimensions is specious. The purpose of scale in this instance is clearly compatibility. To be useful '15mm' must define a standard for compatibility which it clearly and obviously does not if it is just a negation.

Agree 15mm is correct syntax.

They are no more inconstant than women's dress sizes.

Or men's trouser sizes nowadays. Vanity sizing isn't just for the ladies any more. I find modern size 32 is generally the same as old size 34. I now have to take a tape measure with me when I buy clothes.

I spell it 15mm.

And, I understand what it means, regardless of how tall your little man is.

If you want to express it with SI units, then the appropriate usage should be with a space between the numbers and the units, eg. 15 mm.

If you are using imperial measurement units, then there might or might not be a space between the two, depending on what notation you are using, eg. 2" vs. 2 in.

I understand what it means

So… what does it mean?

So it's basically useless

Pretty much. I don't do much 15, but with 10s compatibility of different lines, even within some manufacturers, is a matter of taste and tolerance. "Is manufacturer x compatible with manufacturer y?" seems a constant refrain with 15s as well, and I have had some surprises with my 15mm Italian wars orders.

So, yes. I even have some new-ish 10s that are close to a friend's 25-year-old 15s.

Tom, you wouldn't accept ANY argument for the use of the word 'scale' for such nomenclature – yet you'll happily accept its use for figures that have parts in varying 'scales' (weapons, webbing and ankles all thicker than they should be if in scale) .

If you think that is a logical position to take then fine, I just find it a pointless distinction to get so hot under the collar about.

I'm happy saying 'big 15mm' or 'heroic 28mm' and I'm pretty sure that many gamers will know just what I mean by those terms, even if you don't.

I'm happy saying 'big 15mm' or 'heroic 28mm' and I'm pretty sure that many gamers will know just what I mean by those terms, even if you don't.

So, 'big 15mm "scale"' is really '18mm "scale"', and 'heroic 28mm "scale" is actually '32mm "scale"', or maybe somewhere in-between?

Right. OK. Glad we've cleared that up.

yeah, and the Supreme Court ruled that a tomato is a vegetable, and not a fruit. You say tomato, …

I'm saying nothing

Phil

Tom, you wouldn't accept ANY argument for the use of the word 'scale' for such nomenclature

Actually I use the term size-scale for it. I don't discount the use of the word 'scale' because that word has so many meanings I only point out the meaning which is appropriate is useless in the situation. It's a confusion between scale as a relation and scale as a description, a "scale model" and a "monumental scale".

yet you'll happily accept its use for figures that have parts in varying 'scales'

The purpose of scale in the context is to describe compatibility, if a sword blade is a bit thick it doesn't make much difference in that respect. What's needed is a description of scale which can be used to define a figure as being compatible or out of scale and serve as a guide for manufacturers and hobbyists.

Grossly over-sized body parts, particularly head and hands are out of scale, I don't happily accept them. I do accept adaptations required for manufacture as a practical matter but they are also technically out of scale.

And so, once again, I present Gamers' Rule #1.*

LT

*When there is nothing to fight about, gamers will fight about nothing.

Note: the apostrophe is used correctly, representing the plural possessive.

If we write it like this 15:mm or 15/mm then can we call it a scale?

then can we call it a scale?

I'm less concerned what you call it as to know exactly, or to a reasonable degree of precision, say 6%, what it means.

When you do work for major toy companies 3% is generally the maximum allowable error but I figure there's no way you could hold gaming figures to that.