"Do Internet Sales Threaten the Future of Wargame Shows?" Topic

According to an editoriala few year's back in Slingshot magazine, traders were reporting (a) a steady increase in online sales, and (b) a steady reduction in sales at wargame shows and conventions. Since most shows rely on traders for economic survival, any reduction in sales at shows could threaten the future of wargame shows themselves.

Do you believe that internet sales threaten the future of wargame shows?

I hope not. I haven't spent any less at war-game shows in recent years because of internet purchases.

Rick

I've been to wargame "shows" where there were no vendors Some Bring & Sell/Buy tables were set up though. I personally like seeing them there; nothing like having the lead in your hands – immediate gratification. Dean

I have only bought on line for the last 10 years. I go to cons to play games. This way there is no impulse buys that require me to hide in a dark dingy bar on the mosquito coast until the wife forgives me.

I make at a trade show in a weekend what I make in a month via the website.
Which ain't a lot but there you go.

If postage keeps increasing at the rate it has recently, then internet sales are doomed, and not the other way around…I see all three selling outlets (internet, brick stores, and shows) coexisting and sharing the 'pie'…

Nope.

No.
If my usual spot is there at the Con, I buy from them right then and there.

The rising cost of admission threatens shows.

I don't go to wargames shows. I prefer to avoid soap-dodgers and their backpacks.

I only attend 1 show a year as a trader and take only just enough to make it worth going the short distance to that show. I take less than a week's internet sales at that show but probably double that or more in later sales.

Postage is defintely a big issue. My products are mostly heavy yet relatively inexpensive and the last price rise was entirely due to rises in post and packaging.

I try and buy as much as possible at shows to save on postage but I can't see Internet sales harming show vendors that much. Even if they don't do well on the day they will often pick up sales later through their website.

I think the two will reach a symbiotic balance. The thing that thwarts my frequent attempts to completely withdraw from society and exist only on the Internet is the inability to adequately judge how an Internet purchase will jive with my current inventory without seeing the thing live first. … That and oliebollen; gotta get them live, in the snow, dripping with grease! mmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

People like to shop at stores and shows, then search and buy online at a discount.

However, in the case of historical miniatures, many manufacturers still do not post pictures of their figures, so going to a show or convention is the only way to see the figs.

Buying figs at a show saves on postage which, depending on how much one is purchasing, may offset any online discount.

A good convention is a kid in a candy store . All those venders in one place at one time . I do my best shopping at shows .
Online brings a brigger audience to smaller companies but there is nothing like seeing it live .

As my collections come to completion, I've stopped spending the $300 USD travel cost to HMGS East shows. Internet, even with higher postage is cheaper than travel and hotel. I also only by what I can see on the monitor.

I think internet sales has helped conventions. Conventions bring people together. That is what they are about.
VR
James Mattes

I've passed up buying from an exhibit hall vendor because I could get a better online deal from that same vendor.

Sometimes I think hobby business owners (hobbyists themselves) price to off-set their convention costs, ignoring that their customers are absorbing their own costs as well. No need to punish folks for coming to see you, and by and large it's safe to assume that convention-goers are the gaming evangelists for new products in their game groups back home.

From Allen57:
>The rising cost of admission threatens shows.

Surely people spend more on travel to shows than on admission?

Nope.

I don't believe that the rising cost of admission has anything to do with it. Unless you are local it certainly costs more to travel to the convention than for the admission. Now granted that will vary from industry to industry, I stopped going to my favorite railroad convention because of the admission which was pushing $100 USD for 4 days, but when you break that down to $25 USD a day it really isn't that bad, that's basically the price of admission to a movie for 2 people and maybe a pop.

We are seeing convention attendance start to climb again so that's good and the exhibitor hall always sells out within days of the packets going out so it doesn't look like internet sales have hurt the vendors attending the shows out here.

What will increase is the insularity of conventions. Gamers will increasingly come from a 300 mile circle, and more distant gamers will not attend as travel and hotels become more expensive and products are better seen and more affordable on line. The HMGS Conventions will become increasingly local events. Ths will mean, over time, a decrease from previous high attendence records, and a convention that becomes even more self- referential than it already is.

The vendors row has already seen this effect in its size, and the geographic diversity of its customers.

Yes and no.
I used to drop about $800 USD a show but now am down to maybe $200. USD
In stead of impulse buys at the show I look at a lot of figures"in the flesh" and then figure out what I want to buy.Then go to their online shops.It also spreads the spending out so I don't have to drop all that cash at one time.
I hope most vendors are smart enough to realize that what they actually sell at the show is not all the benefit of going.
There are a few lines I look at then buy direct(especially from UK companies) as they are cheaper even with postage.Sorry but I'm not paying more just to fund a vendors con trip.

Yes. I see less and less unpainted 15mm figs (what I buy)at each HMGS East show

Pique, I think that is correct given current high energy prices -- though accommodations are often bargains due to fewer folks traveling. However, it seems likely that US energy prices will go down sharply in the next some years.

And fitterpete is also correct, both in my own experience as a consumer and also in terms of being a dealer; Splintered Light certainly sees con attendance as advertising -- though we have become more selective about which cons we attend, and distance, as pique says, is definitely a big factor.

I spend less and less time at game conventions. I used to do all three days of Historicon, for instance, and now – if I go at all – I just go for a day-trip. (And now that it's moved so far away, I'm not going to bother.)

It's always fun to walk around and see the wares, but for *real* purchases, I usually know exactly what I want, and the chances of finding it at a game show are a zillion to one. Often, I can't even find the specific color of paint that I need.

So it just makes more sense to order off the internet because I can get exactly what I want. And the game show, when I have time for it, is just a fun afternoon walkabout.

I see it as a symbiotic relationship. Shows allow customers to touch and feel. Show purchases often generate after show web site sales. The big difference in the US is shows are months apart while in the UK you have a choice almost every week.

Bruce
Company B

No.

Hard to say. Some of my favourite vendors have gone from the East shows here in the US, presumably to grow their Internet business.

I went to my first mid size show as a vendor last year. I didn't make a killing because of the expense of travel (over 8 hours) and hotel. I shared that with a local hobby store owner. I will most likely follow him to most of the gaming shows he attends. Well the 150+ attendee ones. He hits some really small ones.

I did experience some great interaction when it came to meeting new customers. My products are not cut and dry like most. I have a lot of trouble getting people to understand how everything works. Showing them first hand helps a lot. Some of them get that gears turning look and walk away. I see those guys again as they come back and we talk through their problem and usually work out a solution. Some of them taught me a thing or two and inspired new products.

I have yet to hit a big show as a vendor. I'd like too but that is a different animal all together.

I don't think I'll be returning to the same shows very often but I'd like to start branching out and attending more of the regional conventions for the above reasons.

I think internet sales are important but the value of customer interaction and seeing the physical object still make conventions necessary.

Jonathan Bowen
CorSec Engineering
corseceng.com

Well I don't think that stores at the last show I went to here in Oz are going to stop me buying online from UK :-)

There were 5 traders all with exactly the same overpriced 28mm plastics and the same rulesets.

I can get all of these for about 50% what they were charging.

Sometimes I think hobby business owners (hobbyists themselves) price to off-set their convention costs, ignoring that their customers are absorbing their own costs as well. No need to punish folks for coming to see you, and by and large it's safe to assume that convention-goers are the gaming evangelists for new products in their game groups back home.

I have seen that one or two do this but not many and not often.
Most have show offers that are not on their websites, myself included thus rewarding show attendees.

My experience is that show sales are down over the last 5 years as people have shifted to buying more from the internet.

I only attend a few shows a year (4 this year) due to health reasons but all big ones and they account for about 10% of my turnover.

Mike

I would have thought that the benefit of a show is to enable direct access to customers. They may not buy there and then purely because they can go home after seeing the product first hand and work out what they want.

I don't think the value of attending an event is necessarily the turnover at the show.

Not to forget that may order online to collect at a show,so is that a show sale or internet sale? I'd imagine internet sale but ymmv.

I suppose the down side there isthe trader is incurring the cost of attending so that the purchaser saves on postage. But equaly they may order a larger amount as they are collecting?

Swings and roundabouts?

You need to attend a certain number of shows for advertising purposes (which some traders don't seem to understand) – even if only to prove you are still alive :-)

Mike

Yes – I have been to shows recently, gone round looking at stuff thinking "Yes,tick, No, Cross" then gone home and ordered over the net in comfort. I also can confirm I have seen prices lower on the net than the same seller at shows.

Pat

Have been told by more than one vendor at our shows (HMGS-South) that they hope to break even on attending the show but use their presence to build their customer list for online sales where they make their profits.

Judging by the continued success and growth of Salute, show shopping is here to stay. Thank goodness!!

Over 100 hobby vendors all in one place suggests they they all think so too. My spending at Salute has increased significantly in the last few years.

I think that it depends on what side of the Atlantic or Pacific you are on,distance travelled,accomadation costs [if any],area of wargaming interest,style of event -single or multiple day.
I used to travel to 6+ conventions in the UK several to buy and several to game but due to rising travel costs and real world assaults on my gaming time I have cut down.
Also some cons are getting very similar with not the vendors that I NEED to buy from!!
With the world wide language of Wargaming and the ease of online shopping [Mrs Von T bought most of the Xmas presents online this year] I am buying from outside the UK more and more.

Judging by the continued success and growth of Salute, show shopping is here to stay. Thank goodness!!

Salute is an exceptional show. In addition to UK customers it attracts a fair number of continental customers and therefore offers the broadest possible customer base of any UK show. It is the one show I would be unlikely to drop from my schedule.

All the rest of the ones I attend have, apart from Colours, become borderline profitable. I go to a selection to wave the flag in different parts of the country, to meet and talk to customers, and increasingly to have a few days' sightseeing or to see friends and play games.

This year I fully expect some shows to be loss-making, and in 2013 I will probably be dropping them, like I and others dropped SELWG last year. I'm sure some grateful trader will be happy to step into whatever shoes are vacated. :-) The decline in profitability is not necessarily due to the internet, but more to the fact that in the current economic climate attendees are having a nice day out to look at but not buy toy soldiers. Unfortunately, it is not apparent how much of the looking turns into later online buying.

It would be cheaper to offer free UK postage than to attend most UK shows, given the costs of diesel, van hire and accommodation. And in my case, ferries. :-)

Ian

Gencon has posted two of its biggest years, attendance-wise, in the past two years. So some money will shift online, sure. But that's happening in *every* market, not just our tiny niche hobby. The big game shows will continue to grow. The tiny ones will consolidate/fade away.

There is a massive difference between US 'convention' style shows and a UK wargames show, most of which are small 1 or 2 day affairs in a little village or school hall, sports centre or university campus.

From a UK standpoint, we have noticed that show takes are generally down, but mail order is significantly up. Combine that with increased transport costs and some smaller shows do become less viable.

That said, we are also very aware of the advertising effect of attending shows. Although the show itself may be marginal/break even, the followup mail order in the following few weeks from that area can be considerable.

I make decisions on what to collect based on whether I can get them at the 2-3 shows I go to a year. I would go to them with or without dealers so the postage saving is not eaten up by travel costs.

I would buy entirely from my local / show vendors if I could and increasing postal costs may slow down online shopping.

For books and electronics however it's all internet now.

I don't think so. I don't always buy what I want at shows, but if I don't get it at the show, I purchase it off the internet. In fact, lately, I've purchased way more off the internet than I did from shows, but I usually saw it at the show first.

I do the majority of my war game shopping at conventions where I can see and hold the merchandise. Other hobby purchasing is either at my local game store or online. So for me no I do not think it will hurt conventions.

I've purchased way more off the internet than I did from shows, but I usually saw it at the show first

That would be our experience of a significant part of the customer base.

I hope not. For me I do most of my major purchases at wargaming conventions. Very little over the internet.

Geoff, would that then suggest some shows are better suited to acting as advertising events, rather than sale opportunities per se – i.e. would they be worth still attending, but with a smaller range of stock – whatever you can get in your car, rather than hiring a van, for instance?

Geoff, would that then suggest some shows are better suited to acting as advertising events, rather than sale opportunities per se – i.e. would they be worth still attending, but with a smaller range of stock – whatever you can get in your car, rather than hiring a van, for instance?

That's certainly the route I'm going down: more display material and only taking what's on display, plus advance orders and the regular sellers. Ultimately I will take as stock pretty much only what attendees can point at in a display case. I see no prospect of changing the Fighting 15s car from the hugely economical Peugeot 206 SW diesel, that will do 60 mpg on, for instance, the 1000-mile round trip from the Isle of Wight to Edinburgh for Claymore with a roofbox and full of lead and paint.

What it means is that I do not carry a full range – not that this has ever been possible anyway. Anyone hoping to look at a particular line before buying has to let me know in advance. I am more than happy to bring something I know someone is interested in seeing, rather than guessing what everyone wants.

I do the majority of my war game shopping at conventions where I can see and hold the merchandise.

All the evidence a trader is that wonderful customers like you are on the decline, in the UK at least. Bill's OP about falling show revenues and increasing internet revenues is spot on as a reflection of what is still happening.

The issue is whether enough traders decide that some shows aren't worth the cost of attending, and whether they can rationalize attendance in a region by ditching certain shows. It's not worth doing every show in London and the Thames Valley, for example, which is saturated in autumn with Colours, SELWG and Warfare, because traders by and large see the same faces at all three.

Ian

It is something we regularly consider. We genreally can't carry our full stock anyway, and even what we carry is in quite shallow stock levels (3-6 of each code) – we just have too much stuff :-)

The problem with the same faces is that have limited budgets in this modern climate, so you are looking at 3 lots of expenses, but only one budgeet split over 3 shows.