"LAW or AT4 per american platoon?" Topic

For plain american rifle guys, how many anti tank weapons would be available for a platoon ?

Im having a rotten time with google, so any help or pointers would be greatly appreciated.

Back in the 1980's they were phasing out the LAW and replacing it with the AT-4. Before the phase out every infantryman was supposed to be issued one LAW. I can't comment on the current employment of the AT-4 we were experimenting with the prototypes when I left the service.

Wouldn't that be rather mission dependent, decided by the platoon leader?

If you are expecting to encounter enemy armoured vehicles or bunkers, you might pack up plenty of them. If you are only expecting to encounter infantry, you might want to leave most of the anti-tank weapons home and instead pack extra ammo for rifles, SAWs, MGs and grenade launchers.

AT4 weighs a bit under 7 kg, so 1-2 pieces per rifleman might be a manageable load depending on conditions. M72 LAW is lighter (under 3 kg) so easier to carry around.

In most cases, I would think that the guys in the weapons squad might not be packing many of these, since they are probably encumbered enough with their MGs and anti-tank missiles.

A A-T 4 weighs about 14lbs so carrying more than one sucks plus all of the other gear you have to carry. In the first Gulf war we had one per Plt but 2 LAWs per fire team .

The LAW was issued as a round of ammunition similar to a grenade. The quantity per squad was mission dependent.

How many men in a fire team, in the Gulf War, e.g. 3, 4, other?

I would think 1 MAW per squad, at least would be reasonable, if enemy armor, or bunkers were expected to be encountered, and possibly more, say 2 – 3 if manning defensive positions vs. Soviet tanks, or IFV's, or similar.

Does that sound about right?

Of course, the above is probably dependent upon how many they have in their tracks (IFVs/APCs), as well.

As most others stated, mission dependent. When I was with 3/1 in Somalia, most of the line companies had zero per platoon. They were not necessary, we were collapsing the UN lines. Would have been a different story if the mission was different.

During the Gulf War, a typical fire team was four men…The team leader, a SAW gunner, a grenadier, and a rifleman. This of course was a full strength infantry rifle team, which many were not. If they were not at full strength, you would keep the SAW and M203 if you had to choose. Not sure about fire teams in non-infantry units like engineers or MP's….

"For plain american rifle guys, how many anti tank weapons would be available for a platoon ? "

Another valid question to ask…. Marine or Army? They have the same fireteam organisation, but little else similar past that.

"For plain american rifle guys, how many anti tank weapons would be available for a platoon ?

In an Army platoon there should be two ATGM teams if the platoon is at full strength. I agree with what Cold Steel said its mission dependent. When I said every man was supposed to be issued a LAW they probably had Fulda Gap on the brain.

Just to give an idea of some of the variables I will tell this story I heard from Grenada veterans of the 82nd Airborne…

"The lead battlions deploying to Grenada grabbed more ammunition, grenades and LAWS from the stockpile than they were supposed to have. They grabbed enough to create shortages for battalions that followed behind them. They regreted what they did when they had to hump all of it and had no one to fire it at. They wanted to share their stockpile later on so they wouldn't have to hump it…"

There are so many variables…

What time period are we talking about? And what service? Things have changed a fair amount in the last 30 years for both the US Army and the USMC.

Depends – if you might have to take out one strong position on patrol – 2, if you are fighting the first guards tank regiment, one each and as many as will fit in or on the APCs

I think one solution to the OP's question would be to say each fireteam or squad is carrying x-number without necessarily having to show the weapons, then just track their usage on paper or with chits or tokens of some kind.

It seems like you can always see one guy in any group of 4 carrying one of those big tubes in the news footage.

Now, whether that's an AT4 or a Javelin tube is beyond me. But it sure seems like one per fireteam is a bare minimum.

Yes, M72 LAWs were issued like grenades, and mission dependent … When I commanded a Mech Co. '87-'89, my SOP was every one who was not carrying a heavy weapon(M60 MG, M249 SAW, M47 Dragon, and/or M47 round, would carry one or two LAWs + an M18 Claymore or two. And every one would get a couple of grenades, mixed types … That was one advantage of having an APC, you could carry a lot more ammo and ordinance. But once dismounted you were physically limited. I was a Rifle Plt Ldr in the 101 '80-'81, and even the most fit troops were limited by human standards … Whether Light or Mech Infantry, you do your job on the ground dismounted …

These questions come down to 2 issues. What is available and how to carry them.

We at MG have approached the issue like this. Most APC's can carry enough LAW type weapons for one per man. However if one man carries more than one the team counts as in carry mode and hence cannot fight back effectively as they have to cut down ammo for there personal weapons and only fight defensively. Similarly if you want your MG to work as a sustained fire weapon you need 2 extras to carry the MG ammo. Now they can't carry extra MG ammo and extra LAW's so you start to get some basic task dependancy with minimal rules. You can let them have as much as they can can carry but they won't fight effectively. However Grunts have to go back to a designated loading point (could be the IFV/APC/Truck and load up a normal fighting load to go from "pack Horse" to full combat efficiency.

So set up a crude chart of who can carry what. Then chose what you want to take bearing in mind that the "pack horses" will have to go back and re-arm. Its an approximation but looks to be an acceptable one. You will find out rapidly that its not whats available but like tha man says what you can carry and fight with effectively.

In the Fauklands war a team of gruns spent the entire time in one action ferrying anmmo for the fire support.

As others have said: for accounting purposes, the AT-4 isn't a weapon. It's an "ordnance item", equivalent to any other expendable explosive. So it doesn't go on the TO&E, you just request one from the ammo guys whenever you need it. For game purposes I suppose you could roll for availability, but the bulk and weight mean that you wouldn't carry a whole lot more than one per fire team under normal circumstances – but Top could show up with a whole vehicle full of the things under abnormal circumstances.

Just to note, M72 LAWs have been back in regular Army and USMC service for some time too. They were reissued to forces in Afghanistan because they were a low cost alternative to M136s or Javelins for attacking enemy personnel concealed behind rocks and such things.

In Desert Storm, we got AT-4s issued to every gun section, and my FDC had a couple as well. But we where not going to walk anywhere, so we loaded up with what the vehicles could carry. For example, I had 5500 rounds of 7.62 for my M-60. That wasnt based on anything, just how many boxes of ammo fit on the floor of the M577. Same wioth the AT-4s. I found a spot for 2 of them so got tweo. If I had more room, I could have gotten more of them. But that is Artillery. No walking dragging a howitzer. If you cant truck it freakk it you know.

owen

Well today Squad & Plt TOEs are a bit different from when I was on active duty with the US Army, '79-'90. In my day … a Squad had 11 men = 2 Fire Tms of 5 + 1 Squad Ldr … IIRC a Squad today only has 9 Troops ? So weapons and ammo dsitribution may also be a bit different today. As I said, in a Mech unit, your track could carry some extra ammo … In the 101, once we were on the ground, we had what we could carry … and had to rely on helicopter resupply or truck … Of course, resupply of any unit can be accomplished by helicopters, ground transport or if you are really lucky USAF CDS drops …

Like all good military questions, the answer is "it depends." It's highly dependant on mission (offensive, defense, patrol…), enemy (do we face only dismounted insurgents, insurgents with technicals, or a Motor Rifle Regiment…), terrain (AT-4 and LAWs are 'short ranged' and effective in 'close terrain' not as effective in open terrain, what type of unit you are and how you are getting to the fight (walking, helo borne, motorized or heavily mechanized and how well the logistics situation is.

I know that was not helpful, so to provide rough order of magnitude answer your question for gaming, I'd recommend.
A USMC squad should have at least one AT-4 if on patrol.
If conducting a deliberate assualt against a strongpoint they should have at least one/fireteam (3 per fireteam).
During Desert Storm, when there was a heavy armor threat and everyone was at least motorized, I've seen ten LAWs issued to a squad.

Both the AT-4 and LAW rocket are rounds of ammunition. There is a SMAW-D (which has a 'bunker buster type round' which is the same size/shape and ergonomics of the AT-4.

USMC task organizes heavily based on METT-TSL (as discussed above) and units facing armor threat is very likely to be reinforced with TOWs and/or Javelins. Likewise the USMC Shoulder Launched Multi Purpose Assault Weapon (SMAW) is assigned to assault sections which are task organized and often assigned to 'support by fire' units to reduce enemy strongpoints.

Apache 6 is spot on. AT 4 issue is generally METT-TSL and unit SOP driven. Javlin/TOW teams are attachements for specific missions. M2/3, MRAP/LVT mounted squads could have quite a few in an armor threat environment. When thinking Light Infantry be kind to "Odenario's Mules"… Today's dirt surfers are schlepping a 60lb + vest in addition to that 15lb rocket, (that we didn't have in the 80's, guess we were bullet proof!) as well as 2 60mm mortar rds, extra 240 ammo or SAW boxes, a Claymore or two, a Camelback, NOGs, Grenades..yada, yada.yada.