"Russian infantry battalion composition 1812 onwards?" Topic
16 Posts
All members in good standing are free to post here. Opinions expressed here are solely those of the posters, and have not been cleared with nor are they endorsed by The Miniatures Page.
Please do not post offers to buy and sell on the main forum.
For more information, see the TMP FAQ.
Back to the Napoleonic Discussion Message Board
Areas of InterestNapoleonic
Featured Hobby News Article
Featured Recent Link
Top-Rated Ruleset
Featured Showcase Article
Featured Profile ArticleTaking a look at elements in Land of the Free.
|
Lord Raglan | 02 Jan 2012 12:55 p.m. PST |
I am slightly confused with the information I am reading on the composition of Russian infantry battalions. It would appear that each battalion is made up of 4 companies however are these 4 companies all musketeers or a mixture of grenadiers and jagers? Using 24 figures per inf battalion, how many would be grenadiers/jagers etc (if any)? Raglan |
steamingdave47 | 02 Jan 2012 1:17 p.m. PST |
I have had Russian Napoleonic armies of this era for the best part of 40 years and have always worked to a 4 company organisation-3 musketeer and 1 "elite". It is my understanding that the elite company was divided into a half company, or platoon, of grenadiers and a platoon of Jager (i.e skirmish trained infantry, although not necessarily rifle armed). I based this on Christopher Duffy's "Borodino and the War of 1812; Military book Society, 1973) For your 24 figure battalions that would amount to 3x6 figure musketeers, 3 grenadier figures and 3 jagers (uniformed similarly to the grenadiers). I tend to use 8 man companies (Using Peter Gilders "In the Grand Manner" rules, but equally suited to "Black Powder"). In line the grenadiers stand on the right, in attack columns, they form a partial 4th rank at the rear with the jager platoon acting as skirmish screen. Russian musketeer regiments had three battalions, with two in the field and a depot battalion. Apparently the grenadiers from the depot companies were amalgamated into the "Combined Grenadier" battalions used in 1812. My impression is that these were not particularly elite troops. In addition there were whole regiments designated as "Jagers". A typical Russian 1812 division would have had 4 musketeer regiments (8 battalions) and 2 Jager regiments (4 battalions). |
Rod MacArthur | 02 Jan 2012 1:22 p.m. PST |
The four large companies actually operated tactically as 8 platoons. Three of the companies comprised two musketeers platoons each and the fourth had one grenadier platoon and one jaeger platoon. Your 24 figures would perfectly fit 8 platoons of 3 figures each. That of course presupposes that you are playing rules which let them be depicted in threes, and not one of the many recent rules with figures in two ranks, which I personally hate, since it makes units ridiculously deep for their frontage. Rod |
Lord Raglan | 02 Jan 2012 1:30 p.m. PST |
I see that a lot of miniature companies advertise they figures like so:
Front Rank
Steve Barber Are these incorrect, with the grenadiers and jagers depolyed at each end of the formation. Raglan |
12345678 | 02 Jan 2012 1:36 p.m. PST |
Grenadiers and jagers should be at opposite ends but those battalions seem to have the wrong number of sub-units. |
steamingdave47 | 02 Jan 2012 5:30 p.m. PST |
I don't suppose the pictures are intended to be a guide to unit organisation, only the potential for producing a decent paint job and nice looking units. The positioning of the grenadiers and jagers is correct, if it's meant to be a line formation. In columns (which Russians tended to use after getting stomped in Austria and Prussia) the grenadiers would form a rear rank. As for Rod Macarthur's objection to "double ranking", I take his point, but even with a single rank of 28mm figures on a 20mm base, depth is still too much. Chandler reckons that a five ranks deep French line in WSS would have occupied about 19 yards depth so the 2 ranks of British in Napoleonic would have been much less. My personal preference is for BIG units, which is the way I am going with my WSS 10mm. |
Lord Raglan | 03 Jan 2012 12:51 a.m. PST |
Final dumb question, Russians carried two flags and not just one? Raglan |
steamingdave47 | 03 Jan 2012 3:43 a.m. PST |
Not a dumb question at all. Russian flags of this period are an absolute minefield because a regiment might be carrying 1797 model, another carrying 1800 model and yet others carrying 1803 model. As I understand it the first battalion carried a colonels flag (white, with orange central disc and eagle) plus one coloured flag (usually some kind of maltese cross type pattern with the central orange disc etc). Other battalions carried two of he coloured pattern. There is a nice simple summary in "Borodino: The Moskova." by F G Hourtoulle which was originally published in France but is available in an English translation. Terence Wise also wrote an Osprey guide a few years ago (mine is dated 1978! not sure if it's still print) "Flags of the Napoleonic wars: Vol 2" which covers Austria, Britain, Prussia and Russia. |
steamingdave47 | 03 Jan 2012 5:18 a.m. PST |
Whoops! Said Russian flags were a minefield. Just been having a look through Terence Wise's book. Appears that it was only the 1803 pattern flags which were all white (technically a white cross on a white background with white stitching!) The 1797 pattern had a white cross with coloured corners, different for every regiment. The 1800 flags also had a white cross, with coloured corners, but here the colours depended on which "Inspection" the regiment was placed in. (Wise gives detailed tables for all the issues). Just to add to the fun Alexander I introduced "Flags of St George", which were a fancier version of the 1803 issue, to mark a regiment's exploits in battle. In 1807 they adopted a system of coloured staves to distinguish regiments within a division.. For the 1812 period this was 1st and 4th yellow, 2nd and 5th black and 3rd white. Not sure what 6th regiment had, but as they were often jagers perhaps it didn't matter in the field. To go back to your original question-definitely 1 white and 5 coloured per regment, i.e. 2 per battalion. |
Lord Raglan | 03 Jan 2012 6:08 a.m. PST |
Thank you guys, All that was really helpful. Raglan |
Femeng2 | 03 Jan 2012 6:18 a.m. PST |
Russian battalions in 1812 only carried one flag per battalion. The first battalion carried the regimenterfahne (Also called the white flag, even though later issues were not) and each of the other battalions carried the Ordinarfahne (Also called the colored flag). Your mix of flags is simply that the Russians, once they issued a flag to a regiment had them keep it forever. Even as styles changed. Making the innocent even more confused, when a refiment was converted to Yegers, they gave up their flag, only to later see it later reissued to a new regiment, sometimes with the regiment's old name, sometimes with a new designation. And Yes, earlier the battalions carried two flags, the first battaion carrying the white flag in lieu of a second colored one. |
12345678 | 03 Jan 2012 6:45 a.m. PST |
I was under the impression that the decree reducing the flags to one per battalion was introduced in August 1814. |
rabbit | 03 Jan 2012 10:00 a.m. PST |
@ Lord Raglan, To return to the question, as alluded to above, the Russians had 8 Platoons per Battalion, two Platoons per Company, 4 Companies per Battalion. The 6 Musketeer Platoons were in three companies, the "elite" company was made up of a Platoon of Grenadiers and a Platoon of "Strelki" or Jagers / Marksmen. 1st Battalion = Grenadiers – Red, Jagers / Strelki – Yellow, Fusiliers / Musketeers White + green centre. 2nd Battalion = Grenadiers – Red over green, Jagers / Strelki – yellow over green, Fusiliers / Musketeers – Green + white centre. 3rd Battalion = Grenadiers – Red over blue, Jagers / Strelki – yellow over blue, Fusiliers / Musketeers – blue + white centre. 2nd Battalion is the depot Battalion, 3rd sometimes referred to as the 2nd field battalion. I have read somewhere that one of these platoons wore plumes, the other did not, so my elite coy has three plumes on six figs. I use Hinchcliffe grenadier figs and lop the plumes off three of them. Officers are all the same: orange centre on a silver badge (there was a royal 'A' cypher over the orange field which wouldn't be visible at 28mm scale or below), regardless of battalion or type of infantry (Grenadier, Musketeer, Jager, etc.) NCO's had a pom-pom in four quadrants, usually appearing as black and white (Black at 12 and 6 and White at 3 and 9). Although I understand that black and orange threads were 'interwoven' in the non-white triangles, so the greater orange vs. black look was dependent on wear and viewing angle. Contemporary paintings and prints show either black or orange All figs in the ordinary Musketeer battalion would have white leather cross straps, so even though three may be referred to as Grenadiers and three as Jagers, they would not have Jager / or Grenadier distinctions, such as collars etc. or black straps for Jagers. Combined Grenadier battalions taken from the 2nd battalion are different
these would be two grenadier companies from Line battalions and one from a Jager battalion. Total 18 figs, three companies, six platoons; six figs of Jagers with black cross straps and 12 in white cross straps. Many of these details are contained within Mark Conrad's translations of Viskovatov and I expect that several Russian-speaking experts on this forum will be along shortly, to sort out any errors in my thoughts. I do not deploy skirmish platoons from my Russians, they appear to be not particularly efficient at it, although there were some reports of whole battalions being so deployed. References to the platoons from line battalions being deployed as a skirmish screen seem to be post 1815. rabbit |
steamingdave47 | 03 Jan 2012 11:52 a.m. PST |
Femeng2 suggests only one standard per battalion in 1812. I would be interested to know his source for that. According to Wise, the Guard regiments were issued with new standards in December 1813, with no white flag and only 1 coloured flag per battalion, but all earlier references are to 1 white and 5 coloured i.e. 2 per battalion. As for rabbit's thoughts re jagers, he may well be correct, although Duffy refers to rifles being issued to 12 NCOs and the best shots of each jager company, which rather suggests that they may have had a skirmishing role as rifles would have been a bit of a disadvantage when firing volleys |
12345678 | 03 Jan 2012 12:03 p.m. PST |
I can find nothing to indicate that Russian battalions only carried one standard in 1812. |
rabbit | 04 Jan 2012 3:27 a.m. PST |
My vote would be for 2 standards but with only 24 figs you may choose to go for 1
your army your choice rabbit |
|