"Defiance Games Plastic SF Marines Up for Order" Topic

The flashing is caused because the pressure to fill the mold was high – so it actually pushed the mold open a little bit. This is caused by the gates – the place where the plastic flows from the runner into the actual parts were too small in some cases. It's better to go too small than too large – as it's easy to take away material and much more painful to have to weld in additional material.

We're expecting another test shot on the revised tool either later today or tomorrow.

Also – the plastic here is run-of-the-mill high impact polystyrene. It's white and a very translucent. The final frames will be shot in a matte grey plastic.

OK, that's looking *better*, but I'm still … grumpy about the phrasing used in you initial announcement, Tony.

I might buy a set, but I really only need a couple sprues (I'm down to a single 28mm scifi game, and I only need 10 models per side for Infinity!).

I quite like the idea of extra parts – I seem to recall getting that with things like the Tau, where there were spares on the sprues.

Does seem like a lot of bases though – is that to help people base other figures to a consistent size, or just excess? Or do you expect some problems with fill on these (I see one base did not fill completely on the pic)?

My name is Marc by the way. Happy to answer to most things, but also happy to stand by my comments against my own name.

Hi Marc – only two of the bases are destined for the box. You get 24 with your 24 figures. The other 2 are going to a separate package of bases available for those who want closed 25mm rounds (we were asked by some of our distributors to make these available)

Caesar – we're charging people for 24 figures – not 12 backpacks or 24 sets of legs. This is the wonders of plastic – you can have lots of extra bits that are basically "free" to the buyer. If someone really doesn't have a use for them, there is always the recycle bin as HIPS is readily reused to make all sorts of things. But I'm sure most will find uses for the extra parts and/or trade them for bits that they can use.

You also have to put this in context of frame design – which is a clever bit of business. Adding that torso doesn't just take away one backpack – it requires the addition of two more heads (so every one of your troops can be equipped the same) AND a standard rifle arm. Once you add those three pieces in – you then have to replace something else. 3 legs/2 torsos – and the resultant correct mix of heads/arms is the sweet spot for this frame.

Hope that helps clarify the choices we made.

Best,
Tony

Tony Reidy
Defiance Games LLC
defiancegames.com

facebook.com/DefianceGames

PS Just got more pics of the second round of test shots – very slight tweaks needed so they are pretty much done. I am off to meet with the molder tomorrow to look at them in person and snatch up as many as I can sneak off with!

Tony, I have a hard time believing that you are so naive. I have a less difficult time believing that you hope the rest of us are.
You should be setting your price based on the cost to produce the materials and cover your associated expenditures plus some for profit. The design of the parts, the making of the molds, the plastic that goes into it, the box design/manufacture/construction, the labor costs, etc. all costs something which then gets covered by the consumer.
There is no cost per figure, your customers are paying for all that extra junk and instead of a backpacks you could have given a torso which would have reduced the amount of useless arms, heads and legs. That is not 'free' stuff, that is stuff paid for by your customers.
So stop playing word games, your consistent lack of truthfulness is tiresome.

Excuse me? Caesar, gosh you've got me laughing over here. Thanks, I needed that!

Extra parts are very cool with me as most other science fiction miniatures are under equipped and lack a lot of variety. I for one am a conversion nut and will be happy to get all the options/ extras. I don't quite understand some off the attitudes here but I also respect that others have different opinions them myself. I will be happy to get my hands on these models.
Hey Tony, Sorry these took so many delays to get to market, but I think they will be worth the effort. Good luck :)

Oi vey. Haters gonna hate, fanboys gonna fan, and company managers gonna tell people that they laugh at them.

Caesar, just buy 1 piece metals or resins. Then no pieces will be wasted.

I really hate it when somebody decides they can speak on my behalf. I have no problem whatsoever with the contents of the sprues or how Tony Reidy calculates the cost per item. Lets just have the product.

Caesar, gosh you've got me laughing over here.

I believe that much is true. After all, this is one big joke you've got going.

Lets just have the product.

Oh Caesar (whoever you are) – now you're just being rude. On the road back from the toolmaker with the latest test shots and we're very happy with the results. All the detail is crisp and lovely. Once I get back to Boston and put the kiddies to bed I'll assemble a few and show them off.

This thread is like a really bad reality show.

If I was a really evil person, I'd even bet that Caesar was one of the people begging for options back in the WF L&UL days. But I will instead assume that he is the type of person that does no converting, and if he wants a model with a left-hand-shooting pose, then by god the manufacturer should make one!

That's still no way to speak to your client-base, Tony.

This thread is like a really bad reality show.

Yup, it is, but I'd like to see anyone play "sprue Tetris" without turning the air blue.

Having the 'standard parts' on one set of frames and the 'option parts' on another is twice the cost. If I was doing Napoleonics, where the headgear changed more than the rest of the uniforms did, that might be a worthwhile option (plus the posing would be simple).

But anything post 1880 is going to be problematic at best.

All the detail is crisp and lovely. – have you had the marines re-done then as not seen any detail on them so far, unlike the bugs.

L i t S

Is Caeser Defiance Games customer base though?

I think the DG have made many errors in their marketing of this range. I buy 1/72 and know that HaT had to rein back on their enthusiasm because they experienced so many unforseen delays in the production of different sets, so now they try and balance fans demands for sneak peeks and their production reality.

And HaT make, what, 200+ sets. So they know what they are talking about. But it still seems like 1 in 3 of their designs end up delayed due to production hiccups. If you are interested, then go the the HaT site and email the owner – he will try and explain. But it does seem a tough path from conception to delivery for injection moulding. Maybe all Tony and DG need to do is to calm down on their hyperbole and excitement. But i guess if you are enthusisatic, then it must be hard reining that back in.

Anyway, sounds like some product is coming, so I hope it turns out good in the end. And sells. And DG makes money. And DG continues in business making more toys for us to play with.

Peace

If I was a really evil person, I'd even bet that Caesar was one of the people begging for options back in the WF L&UL days. But I will instead assume that he is the type of person that does no converting, and if he wants a model with a left-hand-shooting pose, then by god the manufacturer should make one!

Not evil, just silly. Who doesn't like options? Back when I played 40K they provided one with a lot of great "bits" that were useful. They didn't give you a lot of useless extra arms, heads and legs. That's a major difference you are missing here. Holsters, guns, kit -- all fabulous.
But in your DG USMC box of 24 marines you will have leftover:

*12 extra pairs of legs!
*36 extra "weapon arms" (at least you can cut off the weapons).
*24 extra left arms!
*48 spare heads!
*Probably no spare pouches or backpacks!

Mostly useless and hardly "free". Not a lot of great "bits box" material there.
A single backpack versus an entire model. It's not a difficult choice, really.

Is Caeser Defiance Games customer base though?

How do you define customer base? A guy who buys sci-fi miniatures to play games with or a DG "fan" who, despite the company not producing a single miniature or being truthful to the customers, will still take umbrage when someone asks questions that should be asked?

Oh Caesar (whoever you are) – now you're just being rude.

Right, because it's so polite when you skirt the truth or play word games with us.

I've said it all along. Make miniatures, sell them, quit the BS.

People on TMP sometimes post bewilderment at why other members post praise for companies on the consumer affairs board for basically doing what they say they will do. This is an example of why members praise companies that actually do what they say, because there are companies that don't and still take your money.

As I mentioned upthread, but didn't elaborate on, one of the sets several of the playtesters, including myself, have been very hot on is a Civilians set, ideally with armed and unarmed options so you can create insurgents, local militia, space pirates, and hostages or objectives in a single set. Being that this'll be a set of civilians, variety will be important, so another playtester proposed that Defiance include extra torsos in the set, not only for variety, but to make use of extra legs.

It'd be especially appropriate as, just with the Marine set and the extra legs, you could do US colonists in surplus gear or Marines out of standard dress uniform (good for characters). Weapon options and such we've talked would be civilian weapons, rather than military (you'll have plenty of those from other sets). Plus, the lack of extensive weapon options means more civies on each sprue.

It's not an official set make-up, and I know the current release plan is to focus on core forces first, but the issue of extra legs and such isn't exactly something we've been just brushing off.

Plus, personally, I've been wanting civilians for ages!

And of course none of the above really answers the question of what date they may actually be available by?

I commented on this part of it earlier: failure to manage expectations on the part of Tony&company.

I want to see them succeed. But they're undercapitalized (again), and are having supply chain issues (again).

I have never seen people get so hysterical about a bunch of newly to be released figures. Are some of you sure your hobby really is wargaming? ´Cause I am sceptical….

Ah, here we see the advantage of the multi-part plastic figure – you can make these guys in so many poses; standing with rifle at the shoulder, standing with rifle a bit lower than the shoulder, standing with legs slightly further apart with rifle at shoulder…….

I know from previous experience that I am about the only person on TMP who thinks the best way to make plastics is the old-fashioned way – a dozen single-pose figures.

Anyway – now some muggins is going to have to bite the bullet and buy some, as Tony Reidy appears determined not to give us a 'photo of one close enough to tell if they are any good.

Richard, you don't see anything wrong with a 'torso' set so that you can actually get use out of all the spare junk you had to pay for?

If it means I can have an entire box of 24 troops with no two in the same pose? I'm ok with leftover parts.

"Richard, you don't see anything wrong with a 'torso' set so that you can actually get use out of all the spare junk you had to pay for?"

Different strokes for different folks.

The truth is, I would not personally want to be stuck with 48 extra legs (I have two boxes on order, one coming from Warstore because I love having an excuse to send them money); however, I'll probably just order some spare torsos from Maxmini or another company to use with them, or maybe splice them onto some Mantic zombies I ghouls I have laying around. Any I don't use will go into the bits box to get used eventually.

Look, Caesar, the problem here is that you don't seem to understand that other people do not think the way you do. I see your point of view in this, even if I don't agree with it: assuming you buy Marines, you'll have a bunch of plastic leftover and have to figure out what to do with it, so to you it's paying for garbage. I don't particularly see it that way: to me, I'm paying $1.25 USD each for a bunch of figures, and the rest is just gravy. That's my opinion, just like your view is yours, and neither is right nor wrong.

The idea of the Civilian set (or any number of different sets that might come out with an extra torso) isn't a justification to use spare parts, it's a cool set that I and quite a few others are really, really interested in and, if it let's me use spare bits from other sets, that's just gravy too.

Really, though, I don't care much either way. I'm interested in the product and it's in my price range so I bought it and it'll go on the pile with all the other minis I'll get to eventually (and I know for a fact we all have a pile like that!). If I didn't want to the product, or was unsatisfied with the renders and photos I've seen so far, I wouldn't have ordered, and I'm still perfectly ready and able to cancel my preorder in a heartbeat if I didn't think it'd be worth the money.

Ultimately, the real point is: if you don't like the product being offered, don't buy it, and don't assume that those who bought the product have been deluded or don't know better, and don't automatically leap to the conclusion that the people selling the product are somehow being malicious. They just think differently than you.

Also, read this article. It's a humorous take on a real, and well-studied psychological phenomenon which is very much at work in this thread:

link

P.S. again, I'm not saying your wrong, I'm just saying you're failing to see how others can think differently from you.

To think if they gave you that torso instead of that backpack then you'd have 82 cent models and wouldn't need to figure out what to do with 24 left arms.

I'd still wind up spending money on backpacks anyway so, again, different strokes for different folks.

Besides, the goal was always to put 24 figures in the box (and I know this for an absolute fact), so if they had a sprue of 3, it'd be 8 sprues in the box instead of 12, and you wouldn't get any backpacks.

from same source as Richards – albeit that Plan 18 is a bit of a stereotypical view of the British reponse to the AWI (missing that thats exactly what the Continental Army did too)

Also, read this article. It's a humorous take on a real, and well-studied psychological phenomenon which is very much at work in this thread:

Having read that, no-one other than "The Insider" putting it up could have been more ironic.

Guys

This is a train wreck. Let me sumarise for those coming in late:

There's some plastic SF figures being made. They aint out yet. They may be soon. We'll all just have to wait and see, eh?

Some people think the mix of bits on the sprue's are good. Some don't and so disagree with the optimisation of arms versus legs, torsos and heads that the manufacturer has decided upon. It may or may not affect who buys them (if and when they come out).

Similarly, some think that this component mix makes for a less economic product over all. Again, others disagree.

I get it. Opinions differ. I still get it.

Hope everyone else does. Just trying to be helpful

John T

So, who has received theirs? Close-up pictures? Reviews?

Pat

Just going by the last news item on DG site (March 16), nobody has received the final product:

I picked up the first test shot frames on Thursday afternoon with our molder out in western Massachusetts. I assembled 6 Marines last night and this morning and did a quick base coat of Army Painter grey spray.

I'm going to put some more together from the frames I have and get some more pics together soon. Meanwhile, the toolmaker has the mold in final tweaks to go back on press for final shots

Relevant bits highlighted.

Situation subject to change of course but even if DG got the finals yesterday they would be hard pressed to have gotten them to the customers this quickly. Some "insiders" potentially visiting their HQ notwithstanding.

So, who has received theirs? Close-up pictures? Reviews?

Pat

Pat, you're a big meanie.

But funny.

Jake

i would comment but i cannot remember if i am supposed to be a wargames factory sock puppet or a tony sock puppet. if somebody can remind me which i am it would be much appreciated.

but you see that is the big problem, you say something that the other side does not like and people call you a sock puppet and you get 20+ stifles for it.

people do not want to read what they dont agree with, so nobody changes opinions no matter what, which makes the whole thread pointless.

all i would like to say, even not knowing whos sock puppet i am, is that there are very very very many business experts out there who know a lot more about running other peoples businesses than they do.

at some point it became fashionable to attack the company rather than the product, then the people in the company.

why is that? when did your opinion become more important than somebody elses business so much so that you have to voice it every time and every where?

once upon a time people would go to a show and when they see something they liked they would stop and say "thats nice".
Now they go on the internet and say "thats crap" instead.

so somebody's smart comments and prophecy's are more important than waiting for an actual product to review. they have to get in their "i told you so" first so that they can run elsewhere and say "i told you so" to all the other little forums they are on as well.

no big deal? perhaps, except these are the same people handing out all the business advice on "how things should be done".

so somebody's smart comments and prophecy's are more important than waiting for an actual product to review.

Four months after they were "now available" and "in stock", four months after people put up their money and still no miniatures exist to review. Yet the people that you have a problem with are the ones who don't think this is acceptable?

"at some point it became fashionable to attack the company rather than the product, then the people in the company."

Again missing the point. To date, months after announcing "available" and taking the $$$ there are no models to review.

Just curious, but can someone please tell me when the DG USMC figures were first announced?

Can't recall when they were first announced – I find that marginally immaterial actually. As you can tell youself they've been available for purchase (but not eligible for delivery as we all know) since the end of November 2011.

That is a lot of stifles Link – wonder why?

Product delivery is key, or a private forum. HaT run their own forum where their future plans can be discussed off air as it were, away from the harshness of TMP. Perhaps DG should set up their own, and keep news releases to that forum until they have product available to buy?

link hunter wrote 'stuff' yawn, rolls eyes. talk about missing the point.

Ooh! So exciting!

USMC mold is 99.9% ready to go. There are two last bit tweaks needed, but as you can see – the Marines are about to hit the beaches!* We will update everyone next week on when to expect these guys in your mailboxes and at your Friendly Local Game Shop!

link

---

*) Thought these were the space kind of Marines tho, not the sea kind…

Tony Reidy is from a Marketing background – Never expect such a man to leave a Metaphor unmixed!

Pat

seeing the pics they look better then before, but still all sorts of problems – such as the definition between the uniform sleeve and the wrist/hand, the eyes not lining up/being level on the faces, the stock of the gun – is that how it should be or just a lot of flash? detail is still on the soft side too. If they are priced about 40-50p a figure they could be useful, but anything above that and they are not value for money imo.

They do look better.

Made In The USA. I like that. I was made in the USA too. Probably in the back of a Buick, I would try not to imagine.

Well, there will be no shortage of heads, arms and legs on offer…

"link hunter wrote 'stuff' yawn, rolls eyes. talk about missing the point."

no, not missing the point. this is mostly a witch-hunt by very small section of people mostly from another forum.

on other forum a person takes deposits for dragon for YEARS in advance posting nothing but excuse after excuse for many many months longer, even years, than defiance games. and that person has godlike treatment by same people and forum here who say paying in advance is now BAD.

hypocrisy is what it is, not me missing the point.

if you want to make reasonable argument you must apply same rules for all, not excuses for dragon-maker and then outrage for defiance games.

missing the point = you

Actually are the persons being critical mainly British gamers who are used to Victrix, Perrys, WL etc who of course apply a different model ref pre-orders, greens etc – and in doing that I note the comments on the DG website where they said that for both financial and queue length reasons (since Renedra apparently have a longer list of people waiting to get figures made than there are after a 2012 100m final ticket!)they wanted to do things differently

You mean the big Heresy Dragon?

Didn't realize they'd been taking 'pre-orders' on that while saying it was available for purchase. I'd only seen rough greens and "PRE-ORDER NOW". I know they'd been posting pictures and status updates, including the occasional "sorry, have to cast this now, all the different colors of scales make it difficult to see if they're all consistent"

That's an entirely different nature and level of communication than has been coming out of Defiance.

And that's what I have been and am still calling Defiance on. Manage your customer expectations. Communication, even if it's bad news, is always better than people starting nasty comments on a public forum.

I'm a business major, this kind of thing is what I do for a living!

So, who has received their figures? Close-up pictures? Reviews?

Pat

Keep going Max – those figures may appear at some time. Love this thread, it is my daily read now on TMP.