"Defiance Games Plastic SF Marines Up for Order" Topic

These Alien Suns mercs look like a nice substitute for those tired old gothic Space Marines. Not so sold on the USMC, but the Germans are looking good.

More excus… sorry, explanations. ;)

defiancegames.com/index.php/news

At this stage, I'd go to another tool shop. There's plenty out there that seem to be able to make multi-part plastic kit molds (or whatever the correct term is). Perhaps see who GW and Mantic (amongst others) use?

The funny thing is that there aren't really all that many people who can do this kind of work. GW does theirs in house (a program started by Terry Ardener who left GW a couple years ago and started Renedra) – Renedra does the tooling for: Warlord, Perry, Mantic, Conquest Games, Gripping Beast, FireForge, Avatars of War – and I think I'm missing someone.

I wrote one of my Hard Beam Cowboy blog posts about this and how difficult it is:
link

Germans n Chinese sound interesting.

Best of luck. Marines+Bugs= win…

The funny thing is that there aren't really all that many people who can do this kind of work. GW does theirs in house (a program started by Terry Ardener who left GW a couple years ago and started Renedra) – Renedra does the tooling for: Warlord, Perry, Mantic, Conquest Games, Gripping Beast, FireForge, Avatars of War – and I think I'm missing someone.

Ah, it read like they couldn't do it. anyway – BUGS!!

I stand corrected – from the defiance games forums 'On FB Tony mentions they are seeking other tooling guys to do the work for the other planned sets'

so………………………….

It's a wonderful thing that other companies don't follow this same 'business model'.

Quote: It's a wonderful thing that other companies don't follow this same 'business model'.

You mean take the cash and run off, leaving a ream of excuses behind business model??????????

So, no bugs? No marines? Maybe 2013?

well, there's the rapid prototype of the bugs shown on the blog, I wonder if like the marines they'll be listed as in stock and available on the webstore before there is an actual product. I want these bugs to work and be half decent at least, but so far everything seems to be following the old pattern of get the pre-orders and the money in first, then think about making them – but that is the cynic in me. However, the warning signs are there and it's not looking good – again. (can the Chinese be blamed this time?)

Grrrr….

Here's an update from Defiance Games' own website about the trials and tribulations of actually making working molds for plastic figure production:

link

Defiance Games news page:

link

Seek and ye shall find, fellow gamers…

Leland R. Erickson

That's just words I'm afraid and I will not blindly follow and believe them, I've seen this before.
Tony must be the unlickiest person in the world at finding incompetent people/companies to do his work, other start up companies are knocking stuff out without a problem, with decent and not soft detail on the figures and are not just spouting vapourware whilst STILL ACCEPTING MONEY (again) FOR A CURRENTLY NON EXISTENT PRODUCT.

Sorry BWP, I know you want to see them succeed (as do I believe it or not – always nice to have more choice), but they've been spouting on about their stuff for ages now, yet nothing has turned up, and what we've been shown as rapid prototypes and renders look sub-standard.

The concept art looks great however and I am rooting for those bugs to come out well, but the one render of a head shown, and the rapid prototype look like it's just going to be another soft detailed mediocre product, rather than the decent, multi part, well detailed models promised.

Mantic (whether you like their figures or not) are churning out decent plastics without a problem, they show us a preview, then the figures turn up – without all the excuses and delays.

I have nothing against Tony and those involved, but they do seem to perhaps be a bit out of their depth?, maybe not on the hobby side (maybe a tad too ambitious) but certainly on the business side. It's all smoke and mirrors at the moment, hence until I see this stuff in the flesh, at a show I won't believe it's available. Let alone be stupid enough to pre-order! I can't afford to throw money away.

Even LAF (who are normally very polite and patient) are beginning to think Defiance games are a bit of a joke – and the problem is this is starting to go exactly the same way as WF – but there doesn't seem to be as many other people to blame this time.

alien BLOODY HELL surfer 29 Feb 2012 3:02 a.m. PST:

Even LAF (who are normally very polite and patient) are beginning to think Defiance games are a bit of a joke

You don't say?
link

yeh just saw that one, at least it had an artists depiction of it, over at Frothers someone is selling pre-order pre-orders for some not marines, and not even a bloody render! I ask you, people these days are getting lazier with their scams ;-)

I don't think Frothers could be classed 'responsible' in any way shape or form for anything, irresponsible maybe ;-) (although get past the language and you'll find a lot of knowledgable people and a lot is done for charity)

as for the posts on LAF – I'd put that down to not many people like something being listed as 'available' when they mean pre-order, when they actually mean we've not got a product yet, but feel free to send us your cash anyway.Talk about false advertising!

If you look at the start of this thread, Defiance games list the marines as available on the 28th November last year. We are now on the last day of February, and there is still no product, but,as before, they have people's money.
It states available to purchase (and the website still says in stock)- nothing in that announcement that it was pre-orders. At least with the kickstart projects it's upfront that people need the cash to get it going….

I don't think that is anything to do with Frothers, but all to do with Defiance games and/or Tony (remember how WF operated?). Still, it's always good ammo for more smoke and mirrors to deflect criticism, and the rabid fanboys will still believe it and think it's all someone elses fault! Easy to blame Frothers as they ended up ridiculing Tony when he tried to justify things and created his sock puppet accounts…..
*rolls eyes*

That's just words I'm afraid and I will not blindly follow and believe them, I've seen this before.

Seen *what* before precisely? Ever run a business before where a *vendor* assures you of delivery on time and under budget, then makes a liar out of you when they for whatever reason fail to deliver? It happens more times than you might realize, and I've seen it more times than I care to remember (and even been on the receiving end more than once).

Tony must be the unlickiest person in the world at finding incompetent people/companies to do his work, other start up companies are knocking stuff out without a problem, with decent and not soft detail on the figures and are not just spouting vapourware whilst STILL ACCEPTING MONEY (again) FOR A CURRENTLY NON EXISTENT PRODUCT.

Offering product for preorder is not illegal here in the US. I do realize others' mileage may differ in other countries… Don't like that approach? No worries! Don't send him your money. Hell, I haven't sent them a dime…

Sorry BWP,

I have a name. I sign it freely to everything I write. You can address me by that name without fear of injury, death, or my sudden, uninvited appearance in your living room demanding you hand over your immortal soul…

I know you want to see them succeed (as do I believe it or not – always nice to have more choice), but they've been spouting on about their stuff for ages now, yet nothing has turned up, and what we've been shown as rapid prototypes and renders look sub-standard.

OK. I'll take you at your word that you want them to succeed…

The concept art looks great however and I am rooting for those bugs to come out well, but the one render of a head shown, and the rapid prototype look like it's just going to be another soft detailed mediocre product, rather than the decent, multi part, well detailed models promised.

And if they do deliver quality product, do you promise to eat your crow like a good boy? You can have all the ketchup you want with that crow, of course…

Mantic (whether you like their figures or not) are churning out decent plastics without a problem, they show us a preview, then the figures turn up – without all the excuses and delays.

Yup. Another British company using Renendra IIRC. It helps when your start-up has access to an establish domestic provider who is well-and-thoroughly experienced in providing the highly specialized product that you're planning on producing. IMHO it's kinda like the differences between the DAK and the US Army at Kasserine Pass…

I have nothing against Tony and those involved, but they do seem to perhaps be a bit out of their depth?, maybe not on the hobby side (maybe a tad too ambitious) but certainly on the business side. It's all smoke and mirrors at the moment, hence until I see this stuff in the flesh, at a show I won't believe it's available. Let alone be stupid enough to pre-order! I can't afford to throw money away.

Then don't. I don't recall *anyone* twisting your arm, "alien BLOODY HELL surfer" to pony up your hard-earned pounds sterling/yuan/Mexican silver dollars for their products. Hell, I don't even recall "Games Sweatshop" ever doing that even with their most rabid of fanboys…

Even LAF (who are normally very polite and patient) are beginning to think Defiance games are a bit of a joke – and the problem is this is starting to go exactly the same way as WF – but there doesn't seem to be as many other people to blame this time.

Learning curves can be funny things. You have a start-up that was unceremoniously interrupted while trying to work out the kinks having to reconstitute itself from scratch so it could resume learning even more of what was needed on the technical end than before with a vendor who I gather hasn't ever tried this sort of thing before and I don't see anyone with any actual experience offering Defiance Games and friends any assistance in that arena. Kinda like starting your training for Manchester United, getting badly injured during the start of training that you now have to go through physical therapy, *then* you can pick up your *training* where you left off when you got injured, and then after all the training you can maybe get to play later on.

Of course the fans and pundits don't see it that way; all they care about is whether or not their favorite team will have a full crew up and running in time for the finals, and they don't want to hear any "excuses."

We shall see in the end if they can deliver or not. Until there's some sort of substantive resolution -ie., they deliver or they fold- I'll keep my jury out and not alert the angry mob to grab their pitchforks and fire up the torches.

Leland R. Erickson

iguess i used to care….before I ditched 28mm.
i bought a lot of WF initial releases, then sold them off, unhappy with the shoulder joints.
If they really wanted to make a splash, they should make boxed sets of 15 mm scifi figs ala plastic soldier company

your soccer analogy is so way off it beggars belief, but I can see what you are trying to say. Lets agree to disagree as I know you are a big fan of Tony and want to stick up for him\them. If they deliver, and the product is good,I and others will buy some. WF never produce anything I classed as good, the old Em4 plastics were much better quality imo, and even though I am cheapskate on my figures, after buying those awful zombies, and seeing later releases it was all poor. Even the marine shown painted up it a bad sculpt with numerous problems. I have not seen anything yet to suggest their designer/sculptor is any more competent than before. We shall wait and see, but until there is a genuine product (of quality at least as good as 20yr old GW plastics) I shall remain doubtful. (this was going to be longer, but it's late and I've cold beer to drink)

PS, I'll trade my soul for a good bbq sauce on that crow and not ketchup. :-)

PPS – big difference in saying something available to purchase, via forum read worldwide and saying something is pre-order only – but not in the press release – and still not giving a release date. I can understand what happened at WF but surely, surely given all that, you'd make sure the bloody things were made and there were no problems BEFORE you announce they are ready? – as I mentioned, people paid a lot up front on pre-orders with WF and lost money, I just thought Tony might be a bit more cautious/savvy this time. That's not being nasty or harsh I fell, just thinking common sense should take over – once bitten twice shy :-)

I've never seen any other company take money off people so long before they're ready for actual production.

Why do people sign up?

Do Defiance have an enormous discount on pre-orders or something?

PS, I'll trade my soul for a good bbq sauce on that crow and not ketchup. :-)

Done.

Leland R. Erickson

I've never seen any other company take money off people so long before they're ready for actual production.

Why do people sign up?

I never did. Not a dime. But that's just me.

Leland R. Erickson

I've never seen any other company take money off people so long before they're ready for actual production.

Boeing, Lockmart, Raytheon… taking customers' money decades before delivery.

Yup, but they also have penalty clauses built into those contracts. Look at the 787 deliveries. Boeing had to cough up a 777 and a couple 737s because they could not deliver the 787s on time, just to ANA. Nevermind the other customers.

We just wanted to let everyone know that our very first 28mm (1/56 scale) hard plastic set – USMC Infantry – for our Alien War range is now available to purchase!

First paragraph from the original post. That makes it sound like the sprues are in production *right now*, so if I throw money at Defiance Games, I should get product.

I hope, for the sake of everyone that has already bought and paid for these based on his frankly misleading OP in November that, when they finally arrive, these Marines are pretty damn good.

At this rate, they will no longer be suitable for SF gaming, but for Historical instead.

Pat

these Marines are pretty damn good

and I expect to see that on his website as a review.

Pat

I was one of the 'Morons' (LAF) who pre-ordered the Marines (I didn't actally need to as Tony asked me if I'd like a few to paint) and I'm still hopeful that they and the rest of the promised minis appear. I have no previous dealings with Tony or his other, erswhile incarnations so I am perhaps a little less cynical than most. I'll wait patiently.

I assume no shipping notice as of yet then?

The Defiance shop still says "PRE-ORDER! Ships late February!" and for English-speaking* customers apparently also "In Stock" which is not quite strictly true about preorder items. Might want to revise that a bit.

---

*) As the site is language sensitive, this may vary – I see it as "hintatiedot" which is Finnish for "Pricing" or "Price".

You guys are so mean, trying to crush poor Tony's dreams!

Tony's DG forum signature says it all.

"Far better it is to dare mighty things, to win glorious triumphs, even though checkered by failure, than to take rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy much nor suffer much, because they live in the gray twilight that knows not victory or defeat." -- Theodore Roosevelt

If you don't preorder, how can he "dare mighty things" without your money to gamble away? He'd have to use his own money.
That's not right.

OOH, OOH. Drama! Although Leland makes many good points, I am afraid the AlienSurfer and others also make valid points. Bottom line is, we just won't know until we have more information. I am not holding my breath, have not pre-ordered, etc… but would really really like sets of plastic marines, bugs, and maybe even powered armor (???)
I do feel that the 'availability' has misadvertised (is that a word), however I don't think we should jump on Tony yet… fool me once shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me… but as Leland points out, it would perhaps be best not to 'preorder' anything from these folks (and instead just wait hopefully, realizing that this may not happen at all).
On a more positive note, if these things do get produced, it seems that a lot of people on TMP are still interested…
I know I am.

Hi, Defiance Games insider here*

As of right now the plastic runners are being cut and, as soon as the mold base arrive (which should be the 5th of March) the mold for the Marines will be burned and the Marines will go into production.

Meanwhile, there is a chance that very soon I will be able to plaster pictures of my fat, smug face smiling while holding up an assembled and painted bug built from the actual plastic sprue. It all depends on how loudly I beg for a sample.

But, yeah, believe it or not, this is real product that you will really be able to buy. It's just hit some serious and, for every involved, extremely frustrating snags. These are, believe it or not, normal for any company. You just don't hear about it.

*and one who keeps forgetting his TMP password -- this is my THIRD account :(

Also, for the record, I am also Xeno on the DakkaDakka and Wargames Factory forums, Xeno_RG on Warseer, and Richard on the Defiance Forums.

"Image of the actual mold cavities. These'll be used to burn the actual mold, ideally tomorrow."

That was you, Richard (or is it Tony), on Warseer on February 15, repeating Tony's exact words which weren't true then and the Tony speak you've just repeated above isn't any truer now.

link

Adding your own made up bit about assembling a non existent bug in the near future when even the Marines aren't in production, never mind shipped, doesn't add to your credibility.

Will we be hearing from your other TMP accounts any time soon?

For the love of God , just make the darn things already….

I give Tony enormous props for sticking with manufacturers who are close to his stomping grounds in New England. Unfortunately, when you do that, you're going to hit snags. Even more unfortunate is Tony's inability to keep his darn mouth shut until he's got a product to sell. You can't etch dates in stone when you haven't etched your parts into steel. He is completely incapable of playing his hand close to the vest, and he's constantly getting throttled because of it.

I'm sure the marines will be decent when they arrive, but not some groundbreaking works of art. They're trying alot of new things with people who have never done such things before. Down the line, if all goes well, we'll see constant improvements. Even Renedra's initial projects weren't great and those guys had decades of experience coming out of the gate.

Is there no method on TMP for resetting your password? I would think you don't need to create a new account every time.
Of course, given Tony's history of creating sock puppet accounts on multiple fora it is naturaaly suspicious.

@Matakishi

I can assure I'm not Tony. I mean, there's a vague resemblance, in that we're both members of same species, but otherwise . . . not so much.

See. Nothing alike.

Matakishi,

""Image of the actual mold cavities. These'll be used to burn the actual mold, ideally tomorrow."

That was you, Richard (or is it Tony), on Warseer on February 15, repeating Tony's exact words which weren't true then and the Tony speak you've just repeated above isn't any truer now."

That was posted when I, and the assorted Alien War playtesters, along with Tony, Tim, Howard, and John (the actual Defiance Games people) believed that the mold would, in fact, be cut on the 16th or 17th. Then Tony was informed, by the tooler, that the mold base wasn't even in house. That was what prompted Tony to demand that the tooler write an explanation as to the delays because he was getting sick of the guy dropping the ball. The only reason the pre-orders were posted in the first place was an absolute guarantee from the tooler that the molds would be ready. Personally, I think that was a bad idea -- never sell product until you have the stuff in hand!

As to the "made up bit" -- I really don't appreciate being accused of lying. What I really want to know is why you, and a number of other people, have such a hate-on for Wargames Factory/Defiance Games/Tony Reidy? Did he kill your dog or something? Because, I really cannot understand this level of personal hate directed towards a toy company, or what would drive people to spend so much energy spewing venom about them.

I've followed this whole drama on-and-off and only got involved to dispute some of the more bizarre rumors floating about with actually, hard information from somebody who gets the news before everyone else (though usually only a couple minutes before). Right now, that means I know that the Bugs molds should be completed within the next couple of weeks (by another tooling company) and that the Germans will be following shortly thereafter. This assumes no more disasters.

Just for curiosity's sake- from what I've read the first tooling company has never performed this specialized bit of tooling before and there has been (understandably) a learning curve. Does that mean that Defiance has switched to a tool and die maker with more experience in this or another one that will still have to learn the process for the bugs. I'm not trying to curb stomp your company, I just wonder why you'd change toolers at this stage.

So, Tony got caught once with a sock puppet account, and now anyone who speaks up in his defence is automatically considered a sockpuppet of his?

Matakishi/Caeser (and others) – do you even bother to do a little bit of research before making those types of accusations? Because implying Richard (or, as I'm sure you will, me) is a Tony sockpuppet is either implying he's some sort of multiple identity genius or simply showing you would prefer to spew venom about him, regardless of facts. You discredit yourselves by making those accusations – considering just a modicum of research would reveal that Richard has an entire identity on the web that would be pretty hard for Tony to fake.

Now, as to Tony's failings – from my perspective, and to put it nicer than Valator did – almost all of his problems stem from over-enthusiasm and generally just being an optimistic guy. If someone tells him something can be done in three weeks, he takes them at their word.

He's learning though – he was told three weeks for the Marine tooling, and he doubled that amount when he put the marines up for pre-order. He has made no promises on the Bugs and Germans so far because of being burned on the Marines.

And for the record, yes, like Richard, I've been a part of the AW beta test list for the last year. And before you think that things are all unicorns and rainbows over there, I can tell you that Richard and I are probably two of the harshest critics there (as well as towards each other) – both of us have beat Tony & Howard up over things. But when we come to threads like this and see the pure venom – well, it's hard not to stand up for the guy.

Oh, and before anyone accuses me of being a Tony sockpuppet, too, or a fan boy – do a little research. Since I use kristof65 as my forum name in most gaming related forums I'm associated it with, it won't take you much to learn my real name and a little bit about me. Poking around a certain thread on the WF forums about the 6mm deathbots should also show you I'm quite willing to rake Tony over the coals, too.

Jeff – different company with a different process, more familiar with molding things like miniatures. Should mean fewer delays. Sounds like already this company is proceeding faster than the first company.

Of course, until we actually see minis, we won't really know. But I can tell you that Tony is probably more frustrated with his first mold maker than any one here is with Defiance. You should of seen the rant he posted to the beta list a couple of weeks ago about the mold maker when he was informed of delays yet again.

<<What I really want to know is why you, and a number of other people, have such a hate-on for Wargames Factory/Defiance Games/Tony Reidy? Did he kill your dog or something? Because, I really cannot understand this level of personal hate directed towards a toy company, or what would drive people to spend so much energy spewing venom about them.>>

Well, one could ask, what makes you and other "insiders" spend so much time defending people you've possibly never met? Because you've seen his stuff on the internet and he appears to be a great guy?

From what I have read, this company in whatever incarnation has a consistent track record of lying about release dates (or being "over-enthusiastic" and not learning from their mistakes), a track record of taking pre-order money and not delivering product in a timely manner, or at all; a tendency to blame others (the chinese, the toolmaker, frothers, mickey mouse) for their problems; a fondness for posting jingoistic, hate filled rants and encouraging their "insiders" to do the same; according to LAF they have a history of threatening people with legal action for "slander"; and--this is only my suspicion-- if they are this delightful on the public internet forums, what must they be like in private when things don't go their way?

I think it's great for the industry when new companies appear and do well. A science fiction line with the potential that AS seems to have would be welcome. However, I think this particular company burned up its good will when it made TMP the dumping ground for their internal problems and general bad behavior. Had they remained silent and risen like a phoenix from the ashes with a new product…actually in stock…. I bet the reception would have been different. Instead we spent a year hearing how victimized they were and how fantastic they are…and there is no product.

You're defending the indefensible.
(not you Sam)
28th November 2011:

Hello TMP!

We just wanted to let everyone know that our very first 28mm (1/56 scale) hard plastic set – USMC Infantry – for our Alien War range is now available to purchase!

Uh, no, they're not.
(see page one if you're confused about where I found this)

Sam, I'm curious about the "threatening legal action" part. Care to post a link? I'm not being sarcastic, btw, I'm genuinely curious.

And, yes, I quite recall the screaming and bitching about the Chinese. I've been making sure to call them out on the playtesters board about it because it's frikkin' annoying. I also participated in it at one point (probably, iirc, under the name "Richardg" here, on a password I couln't remember), though in my defense, I was saying "Chinese" when I should have been saying "The company that owned Wargames Factory and its president."

Oh, and I know exactly who you're referring to about over-hyping Defiance Games and I've been meaning to tell him to cut the crap. It annoys me.

@Jeff

From what I understand, they're leaving the Marines with the current tooling guy (having sunk a few thousand in loan money into it, they have no choice), but are going with a different tooling company and different process for the next couple of releases until either the current company gets its act together or they find a new one. Apparently, plastic tooling companies capable of doing high-detailed miniatures work are thin on the ground in the US; all of that business was shifted to China years ago.

I've been reading all the comments on several forums regarding the 'alleged' dubious business dealings of Mr. Reidy. Interestingly I can't recall anybody claiming to be actually owed money (apart from the 'morons' (LAF) who pre-ordered the Marines) by Mr. R or his 'companies'. Is that the case?

@dwartist

That's a little disingenous throwing out that "morons" remark out of context from LAF, dude. It was apologized for; your comment makes it sound as though its the general consensus.

If you read my comments on LAF youll find that I wasn't offended by the remark (I actually found it quite amusing) but nevertheless the remark was made and published and, as I understood it, directed at those of us who had pre-ordered the Marines – I use it in that context only and, hopefully with a humourous bent, not as a hostile comment directed at LAF members who i worship and adore! My apologies if you're offended.