Renaud S | 28 Nov 2011 3:09 a.m. PST |
Lately I came accross by chance to the depictions of some events of the Indian Mutiny. It aroused my curiosity, and then fascination, and I began to read everything that I could about the siege of Lakhnao. From a miniature gaming point of view, I can't help to think that the period is colourful, with small forces easily represented, diverse with open battles, street fighting, skirmishes, adventures, sieges, and quite balanced even if the British clearly won the war. And many firt hand accounts are to be found on the net. Actually, it seems much more interesting for gaming than for instance the Zulu war, where both troops are nicely dressed but very uniform and monotonous, where landscape is gorgeous but usually very open, and where every action seems very one-sided, even if numbers succeeded to defeat the British at Ilsandwana. Even Rorke's drift for instance, which is about to be revived in a great set from Warlord and Empress, seems only dull slaughter with very few tactical options, if you compare it for instance with the siege of Lakhnao. I understand that the Zulu War is more present in the popular culture, especially in movies, and that's also why it appeals to wargamer. But why can't the Indian Mutiny be so popular? Could it be that, with the importance of overseas indian communities, it became quite early non-PC, or do you think there are other reasons? |
Plynkes | 28 Nov 2011 3:46 a.m. PST |
Why is anything more popular than anything else? I dunno how it works, and what makes some things cool and other things lame. But Zulus are cool. Mutinous sepoys and badmashes are not. |
20thmaine | 28 Nov 2011 3:48 a.m. PST |
It's the legacy of the film Zulu I suspect. And Rorke's Drift is an iconic engagement. Make a great Indian Mutiny movie and it could all change. |
Sane Max | 28 Nov 2011 4:11 a.m. PST |
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daghan | 28 Nov 2011 4:14 a.m. PST |
Renaud, You point up an interesting dichotomy. Wargamers seem to be inspired more by movies than actual history. BTW I game the Mutiny with TSATF. I've never done the Zulu War for the reasons you point out. But I love the movie for what it is. |
Doug em4miniatures | 28 Nov 2011 4:24 a.m. PST |
Renaud you make a good point and, although the mutiny isn't widely covered in films, I would have thought Flashman's exploits would be good enough to provide inspiration. Doug |
DontFearDareaper | 28 Nov 2011 4:25 a.m. PST |
Even if you weren't inspired by the movies, Islandwhana and Roarke's Drift were iconic moments in British military history. The former is a moment where a British army is decisively defeated by a primarily non fire-armed native force and the latter is an inspiring stand by a handful of men that generated more Victoria Crosses than any other single engagement then or since. The mutiny is one of many failed attempts by a colony to throw off the British colonial yoke. Dave |
Jamesonsafari | 28 Nov 2011 4:30 a.m. PST |
I think your last para pretty much sums things up. |
Jeff at JTFM Enterprises | 28 Nov 2011 4:57 a.m. PST |
If Hollywood can do "Zulu" and "55 Days at Peking" for the The Boxer Rebellion. They could surely do the siege of Lucknow. There's plenty there to make an exciting film that could inspire gaming the period, but I'm guessing no one in Hollywood has heard of it or has the budget to produce it. |
Dynaman8789 | 28 Nov 2011 5:12 a.m. PST |
It boils down to movies. But not JUST becuase of Zulu and Zulu Dawn – but also because the Indian rebellion is known more for the pacifist stance of the movie Gandhi
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The Gray Ghost | 28 Nov 2011 5:19 a.m. PST |
I don't game the Zulu war though I have enough Brits to do so I just don't want to by 80+ Zulus that I can't use with any other period. |
Martin Rapier | 28 Nov 2011 5:43 a.m. PST |
"Make a great Indian Mutiny movie and it could all change." I suspect that would be very hard indeed to do without offending someone if not everyone, given the amount of atrocity and retribution involved. "The mutiny is one of many failed attempts by a colony to throw off the British colonial yoke." The mutiny was conducted against EIC troops against the EIC. It was only after the mutiny was suppressed that Britain took direct control of the government of India (or rather the ex-EIC territories). |
Grelber | 28 Nov 2011 5:55 a.m. PST |
One of the Jeremy Brett Sherlock Holmes shows had some scenes from the back story set during the Mutiny. Still, even if one is inclined to do something set in the sub-continent, there are all those wonderful films set on the North West Frontier. Grelber Who would personally like to do the Mutiny, and even has two figures and a Ganesha for it! |
daghan | 28 Nov 2011 6:23 a.m. PST |
Dynaman, Gandhi's stance against the British took place about 80 years after the Mutiny. And even I wouldn't game the Amritsar massacre. |
The Baron | 28 Nov 2011 6:53 a.m. PST |
I agree with 20thmaine, its all in the image. I.E the movies. |
Dynaman8789 | 28 Nov 2011 7:06 a.m. PST |
> Gandhi's stance against the British took place about 80 years after the Mutiny. And even I wouldn't game the Amritsar massacre. True – but you ask most people about it and Gandhi (rightly or wrongly) is the first thing that comes to mind. |
Connard Sage | 28 Nov 2011 7:09 a.m. PST |
The Indian Mutiny certainly seems less popular with figures manufacturers. Everyone and his dog has a Zulu range** – Mutiny ranges are thinner on the ground. Chicken or egg? **Broad generalisation. Please don't post to tell me than Gargantua Miniatures has never had a Zulu range but their Indian Mutiny figures are superb. |
Lee Brilleaux | 28 Nov 2011 7:31 a.m. PST |
The Indian Mutiny has, indeed, never really caught on. It may be that there are a lot of sieges, and sieges involve owning a bigger piece of model real estate than most of us can manage. Rorke's Drift? Sure. The Legations at Peking? That's a big project. A whole Indian city? That might be bigger still. There's also an assumption that siege warfare is dull. This isn't very fair, of course. Small raids and sallies could be very interesting – but, again, that puts us into the position of needing ten figures per side, and $2000 worth of buildings. I certainly get the impression that the open field battles are rather one-sided – am I wrong? The Mutineer army was commanded by men whose previous command responsibilities were at an NCO/warrant officer level, more or less, meaning that the army was very sluggish on a tactical level. An army that doesn't really manouevre isn't attractive to wargamers. The Zulu War has a fascination that goes far beyond its actual political importance – I've read that even the Zulus don't regard it as a crucial event in their own history. It features what must be the key element in colonial-style warfare – that a mistake by the Imperial commander leads directly to utter disaster at the hands of a fast-moving enemy who intend to wipe out their opponent. There's little room for fixing errors except in the most frantic, skin-of-the-teeth manner. That's something we wargamers love to see happen! |
Chouan | 28 Nov 2011 7:43 a.m. PST |
"The mutiny is one of many failed attempts by a colony to throw off the British colonial yoke." Was it? Or was it an attempt by a sub-group to re-establish their economic and political dominance over a region, to re-establish their hegemony over the population of Oudh? Several nationalist historians from the sub-continent have tried to establish it a a "War of Independence", but it patently wasn't. I'd be interested to learnm about the other failed attempts. I'm not aware of any, apart from Gandhi's campaign of non-violence. |
John the OFM | 28 Nov 2011 8:22 a.m. PST |
I think that TSATF came out at the perfect time, the centennials of various iconic British colonial campaigns. Particularly, the Zulu War. Wargaming missed the boat for the Mutiny centennial. The Big Three were also suported by quite a few Old Skool manufacturers. My collection at the time included Ral Partha, Frotier, Minifigs, Hinchliffe, Armoury, etc. That, plus a crackerjack movie. I don't know of any Mutiny movies. |
Doug em4miniatures | 28 Nov 2011 8:33 a.m. PST |
Please don't post to tell me than Gargantua Miniatures has never had a Zulu range but their Indian Mutiny figures are superb. That marvelous company, Gargantua Miniatures, are big in all periods. Doug |
Martin Rapier | 28 Nov 2011 8:33 a.m. PST |
" I don't know of any Mutiny movies." I'm sure I remember seeing one on TV, the main character was a lawyer whose job it was to see that all the suspects arrested and executed were duly recorded as mutineers and rebels. Or it may be that I've just managed to visualise a scene from Rathbones 'Mutiny' as it was so vivid! I think one of the other things is that it lacks some of the tactical asymmetries of other colonial conflicts, everyone has got muzzle loaders – no Lee Metfords vs spears etc which is what makes things like the Sudan so entertaining. |
Connard Sage | 28 Nov 2011 8:37 a.m. PST |
There's a 2005 Indian film 'Mangal Pandey. The Rising'. |
DontFearDareaper | 28 Nov 2011 8:38 a.m. PST |
I wasn't referring specifically to India, revolts against British colonization by various colonies over the years are too numerous to mention. You yourself admit that the net effect of the mutiny was the replacement of the EIC (itself argueably an agent of British colonial ambition) with a more formal British colonial government. The fact that the conflict is not straightforward and/or well understood helps underline the reason why its not a popular period for gamers. All that being said, I personally do find it interesting and even have a few figures for it although I haven't played it beyond the odd TSATF scenario, but I understand why its not a more mainstream period for wargaming. Dave |
The Virtual Armchair General | 28 Nov 2011 10:01 a.m. PST |
I have a copy of "Mangal Pandi: The Rising." Beautifully filmed, only one action scene at the end, and not very long. But, on the whole, the only thing I found "rising" by the end was my lunch. TVAG |
Cyrus the Great | 28 Nov 2011 10:01 a.m. PST |
It's all about the movies. I remember talking to Steve Carpenter of Minifigs U.S.A. back in the day and he said every time the movie Zulu was on somewhere, he'd get a spike in Zulu War minis orders. Zulu and later Zulu Dawn are iconic. They can be the tipping point for that next gamer-on-the-fence order. Indian Mutiny
(crickets chirp)
(tumble weeds blow across the empty street). |
Allen57 | 28 Nov 2011 11:08 a.m. PST |
Was not one of the old Errol Flynn movies about the Indian Mutiny? I seem to remember troops mutinying after being incited by someone claiming that the Sepoy's rifle cartridges were oiled with pig fat to destroy their religious beliefs. Saw that movie long ago and remember little else nor do I know the true history of India. The same thing can be said for gaming Afhanistan as is said about the Indian Mutiny. Several interesting scenarios but never gamed. Al |
Early morning writer | 28 Nov 2011 11:41 a.m. PST |
Much discussion of movies but what about game play. I've played in several Zulu games over the years and a few Indian Mutiny games. The net result is why I have a very large collection of figures for the Indian Mutiny and what few Zulu figures I have are relegated to extras for my Slightly Cracked Colonials. Indian Mutiny games are fun and diverse – and colorful. Zulu games tend to be all of one of two flavors, spears massacring riflemen or the reverse. And Rorke's drift (or its smaller version at Intombe River). No doubt that will raise a few hackles but such has been my experience. Actually, I think the real reason the Zulu War is so popular is something else entire. The British have the best looking uniform – that nice red coat over those dark blue trousers, the stripes on the pants, the various dyed colors of helmet. They're just way cool. On the other hand, the British during the Mutiny? You can, literally, paint every unit a different color combination and be completely correct. And you can even sneak in the same colors as used for the Zulu War, just a slight variation in the style of hat. And as to building a town? Well, do what I do – use 15 mm. There are several ranges, Dixon being the best in my opinion. So, for me, it's Mutiny all the way over the Zulus. |
Inkpaduta | 28 Nov 2011 11:42 a.m. PST |
I think another factor is balance in the wargame. the Zulus actually defeat a sizable British force, won some skirmishes and came close to overrunning Roarke's Drift. On the gaming table they are a good opponent for the British with a decent chance of winning. The Indian Mutiny -one of my favorite periods by the wat- doesn't have that. Most of the battles were won by the British. If you game it, the Indian side has to have forces much larger than the British to make balance. The quality of the troops are not s good as the British side ect. |
Mad Guru | 28 Nov 2011 11:53 a.m. PST |
Several good explanations heavily covered already, but one was only mentioned briefly in passing, and I think it deserves a bit more attention: the Mutiny involved a great deal of racial and religious hatred resulting in many massacres of civilian populations and ongoing commission of what would today be called war crimes. Everything from mass rape of European women, to blowing captured live mutineers out of cannons. The big 3 British colonial wargaming sub-genres -- Zulu War, Sudan campaigns, NWF -- feature lots of brutal combat, but not so much in the way of wholesale slaughter of non-combatants. I think for some colonial gamers, perhaps many, a big part of the appeal of the period is the romanticized, charming view of war between late 19th century gentlemen, be they "civilized" or "savage". Kipling's ode to the martial prowess of the Fuzzy-Wuzzy is a good example of this attitude from the contemporary record of the time. You can argue whether its patronizing or sincere, but either way, I don't think Kipling would ever have written a poem praising the soldierly skill of the mutineers. There was too much at stake. Personally I have nothing against gaming the Mutiny. |
daghan | 28 Nov 2011 12:02 p.m. PST |
Well said Mad Guru! The majority of our Mutiny games, using a TSATF variant, are based on largish skirmishes around Dheli Ridge. You don't need that many buildings are walled gardens. How many wagons do you need for Isandlwana? |
Derek H | 28 Nov 2011 12:30 p.m. PST |
Round my part of thwe world the Indian Mutiny is actually much more popular than the Zulu War. |
essayons7 | 28 Nov 2011 12:36 p.m. PST |
I have collections for both, so I guess I am an outlier
.. |
Glengarry 2 | 28 Nov 2011 1:56 p.m. PST |
Doesn't the first "Charge of the Light Brigade" movie with, who was it, Errol Flynn, begin during the India Mutiny? Supposedly the charge was to get at the evil villain responsible for an rebel massacre who was somehow working for the Russians and cowering in thier lines. Complete nonesense of course
Perhaps part of the appeal of the Zulu war is it's simplicity. Spears vs rifles, not a lot of troop types (particularly amongst the Zulu's) to worry about, collect and paint. |
Mad Guru | 28 Nov 2011 3:53 p.m. PST |
Yes, that's second mention of the 1936 "The Charge of the Light Brigade", directed by master of action-adventure, Michael Curtiz, which does indeed feature the plot you describe. I remember as a boy thinking the most ridiculous part was the Mutiny plot PRECEDING the Crimean War! But I suppose it was just a small, local rebellion, not THE Great Mutiny. Though no matter how historically wrong the script is, it remains an incredibly well-made movie. |
M C MonkeyDew | 28 Nov 2011 7:03 p.m. PST |
Most "popular" colonial games feature breech loading rifles on one side vs. inferior weaponry on the other. The Mutiny does not. This puts it in the category of the Sikh Wars, the Crimea, the ACW etc. Not "asymmetric" enough for colonial gamers and not equal enough for horse and musket gamers. |
McWong73 | 28 Nov 2011 7:12 p.m. PST |
For me it's the movie. But Zulu isn't just a good movie, it's one of the finest war movies ever made and has been one of my top ten films since childhood. If the only movie we had to go on was Zulu Dawn I'd probably have next to no interest in the period. |
deflatermouse | 29 Nov 2011 3:21 a.m. PST |
Yes Zulu is the film. I'd agree with McWong about Zulu dawn. Same for LeSingeDew's comments. Very easy to identify sides of the Zulu war due to the very monotony of gaming armies & terrain. (never seen proper represation of border horse units or Native units). True the comment re the larger battles of the Mutiny sadly seem to be very hard for the mutineers. Sadly compounded by lack of good rules, lower levels can be done well with Space 1889 or TSATF or another set I have (but the name escapes me at the now) or even Black Powder. (I game Crimea,Mutiny, ACW, Zulu & Sudan & WWI) I have visited the Mutiny museum in the Red Fort in New Delhi 6 years ago. As a Europen with muttonchops it was a bit tense still with a few of the other younger visitors there. My friend was happy to get out. Fully supporting Mad Gurus contribution. |
vonLoudon | 29 Nov 2011 5:46 a.m. PST |
It was an icky war and I know a few east Indians. I don't know any Zulus. |
Oh Bugger | 29 Nov 2011 11:08 a.m. PST |
"Everything from mass rape of European women" Everything but that, but it was a popular myth/propoganda at the time. Since dismissed by the historians if I'm up to date. I think it never caught on for much the same reasons as everyone else but I am interested in gaming the Mutiny. Had I seen a memorable movie about the Maharani of Jhansi when I was a kid I would be gaming it. |
huevans011 | 05 Dec 2011 8:17 p.m. PST |
The Mutiny doesn't have the big field battles. Lots of sieges. Many of them sieges of small European outposts. The rest of them sieges by the British of rebel held towns. No talented mutineer general. The British start to win monotonously towards the end. (Frankly, I don't know how the mutineers blew the campaign. They had all the initial advantages.) And the racial element is so nasty that it guarantees no one will make a movie of the war. OTOH, it's certainly far more balanced than the Zulu War or the Sudan. The uniforms are often more exotic and gorgeous. With some editing and rewriting of history, it could become a lot more interesting. |
Jon Sutherland | 06 Dec 2011 4:18 a.m. PST |
Mangal Pandey is the only Indian Mutiny film I've got, OK so its Bollywood and it does have one song and dance scene. Not a great script but very colourful and great inspiration for gaming the period with all the attention to detail. Not sure why the Indian Mutiny hasn't caught on as much as the Anglo-Zulu War. Mind you, look at the period in which the Indian Mutiny sits – there's the Sikh Wars, arguably more colourful. Then there's the Crimean War – lots of interest there with different nationalities, but an also ran too as far as wargamers are concerned. And there's the Opium Wars too around the same time. The trouble is it slots into a weird period history-wise – its post Napoleonic mid-C19th before the really big conflicts of the latter part of the century – notably the ACW and the Franco-Prussian War – we know how popular the former is, but the latter has never really caught wargamers' imaginations either. The Indian Mutiny does have all the ingredients we look for, colour, weird units, mad bravery, outrageous odds, wonderful backdrop, incredible commanders (good and bad)and that great exotic factor that attracts people to the weird and wonderful. The weapons and tactics are pretty recognisable too. It's also a period that is highly do-able in 28mm and pretty much anything goes because you can dip into figure ranges from all over the place. Having said all of that, I love the Indian Mutiny as a gaming period and never tire of reading about it, but I also love the Anglo-Zulu War – a result of countless Christmas viewings of Zulu no doubt. I have a huge 28mm Indian Mutiny collection and a vast 15mm Anglo-Zulu War collection too. The interesting thing is that the Zulus have never been wargamed with as yet! |
BullDog69 | 07 Dec 2011 12:29 a.m. PST |
Just a couple of comments on earlier posts
Though the Zulu's at Isandlwana were a 'primarily non fire-armed native force', it is reckoned that they had around 5000 firearms at Isandlwana – ie. about 5 or 6 times that of the Imperial forces. Another misconception about Islandlwana is that the battlefield was 'very open'. In fact, at that time of the year (mid-summer) the mealie (corn on the cob) plants which covered most of the field were well over 6 feet tall – meaning the Zulus movement went largely unobserved by the British – does anyone take this into account when they wargame the action? Also, Hollywood did not do 'Zulu' – Cy Endfield was on the banned list for alleged Communist sympathies and was thus barred from working in Hollywood. Funny how any Colonial rebellion / mutiny / thuggery / banditry is grasped upon in later years as a gallant and noble attempt to 'throw off the Imperial yoke', no matter the reality of the situation. For example, in Zimbabwe, Mugabe's Marxist minions have re-branded the 1896 Matabele War as the 'First Chimurenga' (war of independence). This despite the fact that it was started when some Matabele policemen were savagely murdered by their own people, and the vast majority of both Matabele and Mashona either took no part in the up-rising – or actively fought on the side of the Rhodesians. One could make a similar observation about the Indian Mutiny. From a wargame point of view, I personally agree with Renaud in that the Indian Mutiny makes for much more exciting and closely fought encounters than the Zulu War, but each to their own – who can say why anything is more popular than something else. |
bgbboogie | 07 Dec 2011 2:49 p.m. PST |
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Bob Bergman | 11 Dec 2011 8:52 p.m. PST |
I have a large IM collection, and just ran an 8 person game for my local club using my own rules. My games tend to be assaults on a surrounded residency compound or similar, with all of the players being on the same side, namely, the "British." The mutineer forces, which include "units" of badmashes, Afghan clans, and native prince's troops, are all run by me, the gamemaster, following a protocol. This means the players are playing against my game system, and working together instead of against each other (most of the time, anyway). I use area movement and very simple rules designed for convention use. Units are activited by cards, and several cards have events such as "extra loaded muskets" or casualties caused by small arms or sunstroke. Gunga Din (as a young man) makes an appearance, and even Harry Flashman. In short, this approach permits a lot of action and tension in the game, because it is always moving, and there is an actual ebb and flow of battle without complicated rules. It is my favorite period to game, because there can be different results every time without having to field 30,000 mutineers. |
piper909 | 16 Dec 2011 2:27 p.m. PST |
Well, it's very interesting to find this topic today, because I had been meaning to search for posts about any available TS&TF rules variants or expansions for the Indian Mutiny. (Anything out there?) I also would be glad to play this period for the stated reasons above -- colorful units and uniforms, similar to the Boxer Rebellion in a way, and if the Boxer Rebellion produces balanced games, I should think the Mutiny would, too. Not every scenario need be siege-oriented. I tend to agree with comments above -- lack of figure ranges to a degree, plus lack of a gangbusters movie to inspire imaginations, keeps this period largely unknown, especially to Americans. And I would not underestimate the PC factor. India is very touchy about the colonial legacy, and India's a big consumer market (recall that EMI wouldn't let the Beatles put Gandhi on the Sgt. Pepper cover for fear of offending the Indian market). The atrocities on both sides of the Mutiny would be hard ignore and could detract from the attraction (for want of a better word) of the conflict as a gaming pastime, especially in Britain perhaps. |
benglish | 27 Jan 2012 12:11 p.m. PST |
No Indian Mutiny movie. It's likely that simple |
Early morning writer | 28 Jan 2012 12:22 a.m. PST |
The only legitimate reason an IM movie wouldn't be made is lack of a paying audience. IF there is a paying audience, and a good script, the movie will be made. And the controversy it might ignite would just add to the marketing of the movie. |
BullDog69 | 30 Jan 2012 6:54 a.m. PST |
piper909 Very interesting points, though I wonder if India is really that 'touchy' about the Raj? I have worked there (and also with many Indians in other parts of the world) and am lucky enough to have several close friends from India. None of them have had the same sort of hang-ups / denial / PC-inspired revisionist obsession about the Colonial period that I have always experienced in Africa. One such friend (who's father is a Vice-Marshall in the Indian Air Force) always finds a way to proudly remind me that his grandfather was a Brigadier in what he calls the 'Royal' army (ie. when it was still the British-Indian army). Another was telling me the other day how sick he is of the current corruption in India, and how he wishes the British had never left. I wonder if any such 'hand-wringing' comes from westerners, desperately trying not to upset the Indians, rather than the Indians themselves, who – in my experience – have a pragmatic and realistic view of the Imperial period. |
mjkerner | 30 Jan 2012 12:48 p.m. PST |
BullDog, all of your posts above
right on. Funny, also, that no one, even English studios, ever did a movie about Maiwand
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