"A Call To Arms Star Fleet" Topic

You're active on their forums, billclo – you know they can't afford to spend time doing QC, they're too busy frantically trying to meet their preorders and get product to the distributors. :)

Sigh.

Rich,

I know, you're right about that.

I had been planning on ordering a couple of fleet boxes, but I think I'm either going to skip that entirely or wait a few months until they get their act together a little more.

Well, if GW's Failcast experiment is any indication, they should get better as they get more experience. These (relatively) big companies trying to jump into resin in one blind leap are learning the the hard way that QC is vital with the stuff, and I suspect they're also having to revise their production schedules as they find out that they really can't cast things as fast and reliably as they did with metals or "real" plastics. Both Failcast and the Mongoose SFU launch have been handicapped (IMO, anyway) by being very rushed – taking a slower approach to switching to resin would have helped both companies.

If you do decide to buy in seriously, the big fleet boxes are definitely the way to go. The per-figure cost is very reasonable, which can't be said for the blisters. It's even better when you consider all the free replacement figs for miscasts that you'll wind up getting – and I guarantee you excess ships (miscast or not) will have some resale potential on ebay or the marketplaces here and at SCN, making for even lower cost. Even the worst miscast has potential for conversion to a spacewreck – someone out there will want it. :)

Rich,

Well dang, I didn't think of using miscast ships as derelicts. :) I should have though.

Scroll down about halfway here for my thoughts on the subject of space wrecks:

link

Miscasts happen to the best of us, but there's no reason to just junk 'em.

Update from Matt Sprange: More Delays…

It is clear to us that a full, worldwide launch of a game this popular is going to take a lot more stock than we can generate ourselves within a few weeks.

So…

We are going to supply everyone who pre-ordered from us, as fast as possible (fleet sets are already moving out). We will work with retailers who have fielded their own pre-orders.

If you have already ordered the fleet sets from us (all rulebooks and squadron sets have been shipped), you _will_ have them in your hands as soon as they are manufactured, so the wait will not be too long now.

However, as I said, it is now obvious that we would have trouble not only supplying stores around the world, but keeping them in stock too. To that end, we are talking to some third parties to help support us in the production of this line and, when our warehouse is full of fleet (and squadron!) sets ready to go, we will go with the full launch.

In the mean time, we will support everyone who has started playing the game, in every way – tournaments will still go ahead, rules questions will still be answered, and if you are after a few extra ships to expand your fleet, you will be able to pick those up as well.

At the end of the day, it is not fair to the distributors or the retailers to keep promising them miniatures for their customers when we have a backlog of pre-orders from individuals who trusted us to provide them with the miniatures for their games.

We have listened very carefully to the complaints by our customers regarding both the quantity of the Starline 2500 miniatures we can provide and the quality of those miniatures. We know that both the quantity and quality must be increased. You deserve that.

We have found that even with throwing more money, personnel, and equipment at the problem of getting quality minis out at a fast enough rate to fill orders from pre-orders, mail-orders, retailers, and wholesalers, we are not solving all of the issues or satisfying the demands of you, our customers. This will delay our expected relaunch date of mid-February. In the meantime, we will focus our efforts on fulfilling all of the existing pre-orders and support mail-order requests from both individual customers of Mongoose and ADB.

We have consulted with ADB, Inc. about this decision. Together we could not find a better solution. Neither company is happy with this situation, but we feel it is the best of a bad lot.

It has been a bumpier ride than anyone expected at the start of this joint venture. We deeply regret that some of our best customers have been adversely affected. We are going to fix the problems, but please bear with us and we will keep you informed as to our progress.

Finally, we have posted a full FAQ and errata for the rulebook, which can be found here;

mongoosepublishing.com/minia … fleet.html

Note that Matt Sprange didn't bother to tell customers any of that until after people started to ask why distributors were now listing the "February" fleet box releases as due in May. This forum thread's an interesting read:

link

Yah, it's a cluster-hose all around. No one is happy about what's been happening; I'm sure Matt and SVC aren't happy, the customers aren't happy.

All I can do now is put the whole thing on the back burner and wait until some minis I ordered show up.

I just hope Matt doesn't have to resort to having the Chinese make the minis. Producing the required volume probably won't be a big problem for the Chinese, but I suspect that the improved quality desired may be more difficult to address.

rich your paint jobs are just sick , :)
do you guys have pics of the models just of the package , not painted? i would like to see them so i can get an ideal on how the molds were made if i can.

Ravenstar, try here:

starfleetgames.com/Starline%202500%20Miniatures.shtml

Still not sure why they went with the weird scale…

If they wanted bigger, it seems they should have gone 1/2500 to get some sales out of the modeller market. Some of the CAD designs look like they would have been detailed enough for that scale.

The again, if the QC is not up to task, it's even a bigger deal for modellers that gamers (in general).

Well I have been waiting to see the out come of this launch. It has gone much to my expectations in regards to Mongoose. I spent my money elsewhere for now. Hopefully SVC is already consulting his lawyers. It is my opinion he will need them. When ADB takes over production I'll reconsider.

I ordered the new star trek models as soon as I saw the Mongoose post here on TMP in November 2011. It is now February 2012 and they still haven't arrived. Silence from Mongoose, except when I email them they assure me the I will get them "soon." Not a good way to do business.

Good business, no. Typical Mongoose, yes.

What do you mean, good business? I get a little tired of "oh, product will be shipping any time now", followed later by "Product will be shipped in 3 weeks", followed by "any time now", followed by "product is shipping now (though no one will speak up and say yes, their product has arrived).

One broken promise after another, like a scratched record. Crap like that has likely driven away plenty of customers.

Perhaps you missed the "no" part of his post.

If it were cheap Mongoose would definitely be at the cheap and cheerful end of the hobby.

If it were cheap.

No, trust me, they're not cheerful either. Or at least their increasingly disgruntled customers aren't. :)

Perhaps you missed the "no" part of his post.

Rather obviously. Sometimes my loathing for Mongoose's business practices doesn't come through as clearly as I'd like.

Things don't seem to have improved very much. Repost of a post over at ADB's website from a poster there:

By Terry O'Carroll (Terryoc) on Saturday, February 18, 2012 – 07:09 pm:

The following is excerpted from an email I got from the Australian distributor yesterday.

Quote:

I finally received the order from Mongoose a little over a week ago, and, with some trepidation, opened a squadron box at random – and discovered that all the horror stories that have been circulating on the net about the casting issues are true. From an order of about 30 Squadron boxes, I unpacked a total of FIVE miniatures which I would regard as sellable. The rest all have to be returned to Mongoose.

As you may be aware, Mongoose are working towards solving these serious production issues. However, by their own estimate, it may be as late as May before these problems are fixed.

[Bold type is in original.]

The minis described here spent at least 3-4 weeks in transit, so things may have improved in the time since they were manufactured. I still feel greatly disappointed and chose to cancel my pre-order.

I honestly had hope for these, I really did.

But having been through the Mongoose wringer twice before, I knew better.

I just wish I was wrong.

The 2 squadron boxes I got were okay, needed some work, but not horrible. Once they got puttied up, they looked pretty decent. But they shouldn't need as much work as they are needing either.

There are some defects I can't easily fix, like missing areas that aren't easily "green-puttyable". Some can be patched up, some cannot.

I'm fairly new to the Mongoose scene, having bought their Traveller core books last summer. But after doing alot more reading on the Net about them, I am quite concerned about the future of the whole ACTA:SF game. Rules rushed out for Xmas, minis with severe QC problems, endless delays and broken promises.

It's got to be giving SVC at ADB an ulcer hearing about all this and not being able to do very much about it all. :(

"It's got to be giving SVC at ADB an ulcer hearing about all this and not being able to do very much about it all. :("

He should have been more diligent as regards his current business partner and their track record in the miniatures market. Lie with dogs and you wake with fleas.

I'll just say original injection plastic feds from Zocchi, metal ships from, er anyone else.

I wouldn't waste my breath, time and money on this venture, I'm afraid.

But then I've been stung by them before.

John T

Are the old miniatures from ADB still available?

The older ADB minaitures are still here.

link

link

I'll just say original injection plastic feds from Zocchi, metal ships from, er anyone else.

Have to agree with you. It's really quite amazing that after all these years, Zocchi's plastics and FASA's metals are still the best Trek minis ever made, hands down. No one else has even come close, really.

The 2 squadron boxes I got were okay, needed some work, but not horrible. Once they got puttied up, they looked pretty decent. But they shouldn't need as much work as they are needing either.

Good resin shouldn't require putty work at all – maybe the odd air bubble, but those are usually easier to fix with glue, or by distressing them to look like wear or damage. If you're having to repair structural damage or fix gaps with putty, the model shouldn't have passed QC in the first place. Ravenstar and (now that they've got their act together) Spartan are good examples of how starship resins should look. A minute or two of cleanup and they're good to go.

New news from Mongoose/ADB about converting most of the miniature line to metal.

link

A step in the right direction, since they just aren't getting the resin casting op to work for them. I wouldn't have expected ADB to be able to twist Matt's arm so effectively – he must really be sold on how much money Mongoose can milk out of the game, even after the botched launch. I see they've moved the "relaunch" up to March now, be interesting to see how well they stick to the schedule this time, and whether they keep the prices at their current level. "99% sure" is surprisingly unreassuring where ACTA-SFU is involved.

" FASA's metals are still the best Trek minis ever made, hands down."

I do love the FASA ships, but a few had some terrible issues; Many of the models had too many parts (Klingon D7) with terrible locating points that were usually under-strength for the task. The Constitution class was notorious for its nacelle pylons – they were far too thin, and bent completely out of shape after a while.

Well, pewter may be a solution for the Starline 2500 line, but we shall have to wait and see. I for one hope they don't abandon resin in favor of metal. If Spartan Games can make it work in resin, so can Mongoose, given enough time, effort, and support.

True, but the majority of the FASA sculpts were real gems. I can't think of a single Romulan I disliked, for ex. Also, Zocchi's plastics covered many of the problematic sculpts, although not all of them.

Not at all sure I believe that Mongoose can pull off some of those SFU designs in resin, personally. The shapes of many of those ships just make metal (or hybrid metal & resin) a better medium IMO. You're talking about weak pylons on the FASA Connies – how likely is resin to work any better? They may not bend over time, but they will break, and fixng breaks on thin resin parts is no joy.

Injection-molded hard styrene plastic would be the best way to go, but I don't think that's even under consideration.

They've announced they are going to metal.

They've announced they are going to metal.

Gosh – I can't wait…

John T

LOL

Where has Mongoose made this annoucement about switching to metal?

Thanks

On their forums here:

link

To my mild surprise, Matt has guaranteed that prices will stay the same. Let's all remember that.

Didn't…I dunno, Franklin Mint or Hallmark or someone end up with the old FASA molds?

I think that's one of the biggest shames about having to stick with the Star Fleet Universe, you don't get to use those delicious Movie Era ships.

I won't lie and say SFU has no cool ship designs, but as far as I'm concerned, the Constitution Refit is what the Enterprise should have looked like in the first place.

"Zocchi's plastics covered many of the problematic sculpts"

A shame he used substandard materials or methods on occasion, then. I had a couple Fed DDs shatter in ways that model styrene shouldn't. The break patterns look a lot like what I saw in some cheap sheet styrene years later, not the deforming breaks of injection model styrene. Lower temperatures, perhaps, but I haven't bought a Zocchi ship since.

Never had a problem with them myself, although Gamescience dice were not always up to par. Dice get bashed around a lot, though – what were you doing to your minis that they shattered?

Cripes, those Zocchi ships are cheap:

link

I'll take my chances on fragile plastic – they've gone up what, $1 USD from the original release price? $1.50 USD?

"Zocchi's plastics covered many of the problematic sculpts"

A shame he used substandard materials or methods on occasion, then. I had a couple Fed DDs shatter in ways that model styrene shouldn't. The break patterns look a lot like what I saw in some cheap sheet styrene years later, not the deforming breaks of injection model styrene. Lower temperatures, perhaps, but I haven't bought a Zocchi ship since.

Hmmm: I've had Zocchi plastic ships that I bought in the late seventies that are still going strong so it's hard to comment. Obviously everyone's experience is different and perhaps plastics changed at different times but I have never, ever had a failure of a plastic Zocchi ship that didn't inolve me dropping the ship and inadvertantly standing on it

John T

I wasn't able to attend, but here's a good AAR and pictures of a large A Call To Arms Star Fleet game run at Nashcon. Over 60 ships were to be used…

forum.mongoosepublishing.com/viewtopic.php?f=103&t=51447&sid=d04189c8f39d31c8bd114578acd3e1bd

As well as a tournament there as well.

forum.mongoosepublishing.com/viewtopic.php?f=103&t=51448&sid=d04189c8f39d31c8bd114578acd3e1bd

That's just too big of a game.

So if I were to pick up a fleet box from the war store, would I be getting metal or resin ships? Have they made the switch yet?

The switch was made awhile ago, and so you should get metal now. The Klingon C8 is still resin body with metal engine assemblies, and does take a little judicious work to pretty up.

Here's a review of the new Federation Reinforcements box by "Ben"…

warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?342677-A-Call-to-Arms-Star-Fleet-Review-of-the-Federation-reinforcements-set

The switch was made awhile ago, and so you should get metal now.

The War Store will probably send metal if you request it in advance of your order. Otherwise I'd be real careful about ordering blind if you want to avoid resin. Much like the flawed early castings of some Firestorm Armada ships, retailers got stuck with quite a bit of the original SFU stuff, and their best bet to dump it is via internet/mail order sales. I know our FLGS has boxes of resin that they never expect to sell in store, and that other store owners have come to the same conclusion after discussions on the retailer forums.

I wouldn't buy first-gen Dindrenzi ships sight unseen, and doing the same with early (ie Fed or Kling) SFU figs is similarly risky.

Mongoose is raising prices on the Fleet boxes…

link

I really do like the game but will all the ups and down that comes with Mongoose I am planning on avoiding their miniature line entirely.

Is anyone else using ADB's Mega Hex ship counters like I am? They work great for our group.

with them raising their prices, i won't buy that line, i will pick up some of lou's ships. i will be using adb mega hex ship counters.