"The Stainless Banner at Gettysburg" Topic
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01 Nov 2011 3:26 a.m. PST by Editor in Chief Bill
- Changed title from "The Stainless Banner at Geyysburg" to "The Stainless Banner at Gettysburg"
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zippyfusenet | 31 Oct 2011 7:04 p.m. PST |
I've recently stumbled across pictorial evidence that the five Louisiana regiments of Hayes' Brigade, Early's Division, Ewell's III Corps of the Army of Northern Virginia, carried the Confederate Second National Flag, the Stainless Banner, as regimental colors at the battle of Gettysburg. I'm convinced, but the idea seems so unlikely that I want to run it by the experts here on TMP. Can you confirm or debunk what I think I've found? First, the picture:
CemeteryHill by zippyfusenet, on Flickr I found this on p.181 of Battledress/The Uniforms of the World's Great Armies/1700 to the Present, edited by I.T.Schick, c.1978. This is a pleasant coffee-table volume full of uniform prints, but it doesn't document sources beyond a Select Bibliography. The drawing is unattested. I can't identify the original source. The style is that of a Civil War newspaper artist, working for Leslie's Illustrated or a competitor. The drawing looks authentic to me. While it's not a photograph, artist-correspondants provided the visual record of their day, and the pros worked to provide accurate detail to their audience. I think they were unlikely to add unusual features to a news-drawing, unless they were documenting what they saw. The drawing is captioned, "'The Battle of Gettysburg – Charge of the Confederates on Cemetery Hill, Thursday night, 2 July 1863". It shows a brigade of Confederate infantry in typical ANV uniform, that could be a dark grey.These Rebs are in supported line formation, storming Federal fortifications directly in front of the Cemetery Gate on Cemetery Hill. Five regimental colors are visible, and every one is a Stainless Banner. These troops can only be Hayes' brigade: the 5th, 6th, 7th, 8th and 9th Louisiana. Hayes' is the only formation that charged the Cemetery Gate as night fell on July 2. Five regiments are carrying five colors, as their line curves to sweep around the point of Cemetery Hill. All my sources tell me that the Stainless Banner was hardly ever used as a regimental color. By the time the CSA adopted their Second National flag, most Confederate armies and departments had ordered their regiments to carry Battle Flags of various pattern. The Army of Northern Virginia was first to adopt the Beauregard or Southern Cross pattern Battle Flag, and I understand that by the Gettysburg campaign it was issued to all formations of the ANV. Where other flags appear in the record as regimental colors in the ANV, authors explain that the off-pattern had been improvised as a replacement, or that it had been ordered to the front from a rear-area garrison. But this picture shows Hayes' whole brigade making their charge under the Stainless Banner. This artist surely knew that the Battle Flag was the standard
uh, standard for the ANV. I don't think he would have shown anything else, unless he was drawing an unusual detail he actually saw. If he didn't know what pattern Hayes' regimental colors really were, he would have drawn the ANV Battle Flag as the default. And I can't *disprove* these Stainless Banners for Hayes' Brigade. Richard Rollins The Damned Red Flags of the Rebellion is a record documenting all that is known of the Confederate colors that the Army of the Potomac captured at Gettysburg. Nearly all are ANV Battle Flags. The color of the 8th Louisiana of Hayes Brigade was captured on July 2, but no longer can be found and its pattern was not recorded. The 21st North Carolina of Hoke's Brigade, Hayes' neighbor in Early's Division, also lost a color on July 2. It is likewise not to be found and its pattern is not recorded. It doesn't appear that the other two brigades of Early's Division, Smith and Gordon, lost any colors at Gettysburg. Colors lost by Early's neighbors in Ewell's Corps, Johnson's and Rodes' Divisions, were ANV Battle Flag pattern. I have a few books about Gettysburg and a book about Louisiana troops in the ANV that I've checked. I can't find any specific remarks on Hayes' Brigade's regimental colors. Hayes' Louisiana regiments had been in Virginia since 1861. Hayes' Brigade had been part of Early's division since 1862. I don't know of any reason for them to have an issue of Stainless Banners. But seeing is believing. I have this picture. Um, does anyone have any ideas why this whole brigade would have had such an unusual issue of colors? Did the other brigades of Early's Division also carry Stainless Banners at Gettysburg? Is there anything to indicate they didn't? |
TKindred | 31 Oct 2011 11:36 p.m. PST |
I doubt that any regiment carried a National Color at Gettysburg. Lee was pretty doggone specific about only battleflags being carried in the field. I would file this under artistic license. FWIW, Some years ago I had a quite interesting conversation with Brian Pohanka regarding the Brigade Division and Corps flags of the AoP. He related a story about the cyclorama being unveiled, and among the many dignitaries was General Hancock. Hancock remarked about how realistic and accurate the painting was, except, as he said, regarding "those flags". When asked which flags he was referring to, Hancock remarked, "those flags with the corps badges. We didn't have then yet". Brian had promised to send me the source for the quote, but it got lost in the shuffle when he was diagnosed with cancer. I have often thought about that conversation, and how interesting that quote is. Brian was as honest as the day is long, and made his living, literally, off of his reputation as a researcher. I hope some day to track that source down. It's probably somewhere in either the Gettysburg NPS archive, or the Library of Congress. Anyway, back to the original question
. as i said, I suspect it is artistic license, and nothing more. |
john lacour | 01 Nov 2011 1:33 a.m. PST |
according to glenn tucker in "high tide ar gettysburg", the on e and only regiment to carry the 1st stainless banner was the 32nd north carolina in daniels brigade. |
Cleburne1863 | 01 Nov 2011 5:06 a.m. PST |
If Hancock is referring to the corps flags with corps symbols and red numbers, then he is correct. Those flags weren't authorized until August 1st, 1864. Between Feb. 1863 and Aug. 1864 all the AotP corps flags were blue with the white cross botonee and red numerals. I haven't been able to find the actual order for August 1st, 1864 either. Just references to it. Neither have other flag researchers on the flag board I frequent. |
Femeng2 | 01 Nov 2011 5:07 a.m. PST |
No stainless banners were ever issued to regiments. The depot at Richmind periodically replaced colors, as necessary, by brigade, and there were at least five issues of the ANV battle flags. Some even included the brigade battle honors to date. As with TV today, ignorant assumptions are easier to do than ask anyone knowledgeable on the subject. IN many casases, even the hired expert is ignored in favor of "accepted' lore. |
zippyfusenet | 01 Nov 2011 5:29 a.m. PST |
Thanks for the input folks, keep it coming. I've found a different newspaper engraving of Hayes' attack, and it shows Battle Flags in use, not the 2nd National: link Rollins states that 'at least' one regiment carried the 2nd National at Gettysburg, but doesn't say which one. I presume he means the 32nd N.C. Does Tucker give any details as to how they received this color? Rollins describes five 'issues' (patterns) of the ANV Battle Flag and details when a number of formations received theirs. However, he does not mention any elements of Early's Division. Does anyone have details of flag issues to Early's men? The 2nd National was adopted in the spring of 1863, and is said to have first been used at Stonewall Jackson's funeral. It could not have been issued much before the invasion of Pennsylvania. |
HistoryPhD | 01 Nov 2011 8:28 a.m. PST |
There is a least a trace of anecdotal evidence that the Stainless Banner was carried in the field on rare occasions soon after its issue. In research for my PhD, I recall reading that it was ordered not to be used in field service because, when hanging limp, it was several times mistaken for an all white "surrender flag". Supposedly that's part of what prompted the Confederate Congress to very belatedly add the red bar to the fly edge of the flag in 1865. |
79thPA | 01 Nov 2011 9:58 a.m. PST |
I would also consider the artistic license effect re. anything printed in an ACW era newspaper or book. |
john lacour | 01 Nov 2011 12:32 p.m. PST |
tucker says the flag was first given to ewell, with the idea to give it to a "deserving regiment" i the 2nd corps. it then made its was down to the 32nd. it was presented at york. |
Ryan T | 01 Nov 2011 6:34 p.m. PST |
Early's Divison was issued unmarked 3rd Bunting battleflags at some time after the battle of Sharpsburg. The bulk of the division continued to carry these flags at Gettysburg, but there were several exceptions. In Hoke's Brigade the 6th North Carolina carried both a home-made variant of the ANV battleflag as well as a state flag. This latter flag had a dark blue field with a circular North Carolina state seal on the obverse and the inscription North Carolina on the reverse. Smith's Brigade had two regiments that did not have 3rd Bunting flags. The 31st Virginia was still using a Cotton Issue battle-flag from early 1862. The 13th Virginia apparently bore an ANV variant made by the wife of AP Hill early in the war. There are two accounts of the 2nd National used by the 32nd NC. The first claims that the flag was made by a group of Richmond women and handed down the chain of command from Davis to Lee and eventually to the 32nd NC which was selected at best meeting the criteria of being the "most worthy of receiving and carrying it". This seems somewhat unlikely as the 32nd was new to the ANV and had seen little previous combat. The second version, based on a diary entry by one of Ewell's staff, states that during the Confederate occupation of Carlisle PA it was decided to raise a Confederate National flag. The 32nd NC's 3rd Bunting flag was handed over to several tailors and a white field was added. This flag has subsequently been identified as WD 126 in the collection of the Museum of the Confederacy. It presently measures 65 x69 inches in size. |
zippyfusenet | 01 Nov 2011 6:40 p.m. PST |
I found another scrap. Madaus and Needham in The Battle Flags of the Confederate Army of Tennessee, illustrate more than a dozen examples of 2nd National flags used as unit standards. These all occur in the western Confederate armies, so have no bearing on the Army of Northern Virginia at Gettysburg. But on p.100 these authors write: "This is in direct contrast to the Army of Northern Virginia, where at least two quartermaster issuances of the second national pattern have been identified." And nothing more. AAARGH! What two issuances in the ANV????? I suppose one could be the issue of a 2nd National to the 32nd N.C. in York Pennsylvania, just a few days before the battle of Gettysburg. What was the second documented case? Even if it wasn't to Hayes' brigade, it supports the possibility of other issues of the Stainless Banner to ANV units. Hmm. Ryan Toews thanks for that, I hadn't seen your post when I wrote the above. Maybe the case of the 32nd N.C. was not an official issue after all. And thanks very much for the information on Early's Division's colors. |
Ryan T | 01 Nov 2011 8:33 p.m. PST |
Check out the infomation halfway down the page at: link Of the two issues, one came from the Richmond Clothing Depot and the other from the Staunton Clothing Depot. I'm afraid I have no additional details on these flags so far. |
bgbboogie | 02 Nov 2011 12:01 a.m. PST |
‘An issue' Aas an ex force guy means that an item has been approved for issue, this may mean some flags were available for issue. Myself ‘I guess' the banner was issued, it was then realised that there was a problem with the confusion of the surrender issue, so an amendment went out to add a red bar. Knowing the military most regiment said " that we'll keep what we have". So yes; I believe some regiments at Gettysburg used the new flag, especially as the lithograph shows the assault on the Cemetery with them in use, therefore we must believe this evidence as true, until it is disproved by evidence to the contrary. I am very wary of ' In my opinion' statements, as this 'opinion' gets circulated around and other gamers who are a little less read, become misinformed as to what is fact and what is fiction. What is fact is the standards that are in museums as being as Gettysburg which are the normal southern cross on blue within a red field. It may be worth a study of what flags were at Gettysburg this will then at least show the trend at the time. |
donlowry | 02 Nov 2011 10:11 a.m. PST |
The obvious question is: Who drew the picture, and was he actually present to see what he drew? |
Ryan T | 02 Nov 2011 6:51 p.m. PST |
The illustration of the Confederate attack on Cemetery Hill first appeared in the July 25, 1863 issue of Frank Leslie's Illustrated Newspaper. Edwin Forbes was the artist and he arrived at Gettysburg just before the end of the battle and then spent several days creating a number of sketches of the events he had seen and that were related to him by various participants. His sketches were then submitted to Leslie's and engravings were made based on these drawings. So it would seem at first that the engraved image was fairly accurate. However, Forbes' sketches have fortunately survived to the present and the original pencil drawing shows the Confederates only carrying the standard ANV battleflag. It would appear that the engraver back in New York used some artistic license to enhance the final image. The newspaper image can be seen here: picture Forbes' orginal pencil sketch can be found halfway down this page: link |
donlowry | 03 Nov 2011 9:44 a.m. PST |
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zippyfusenet | 03 Nov 2011 9:52 a.m. PST |
Ryan, you've settled all the questions I raised. The picture is spurious. 2nd National flags were not issued in the ANV until 'late 1863', which would be after the Gettysburg campaign. Except for the 32nd N.C., which seems to have been a unique occurrance. Thanks all. |
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