"Why 15mm Gaming?" Topic

Serious question…

Why are some of you folks are really adamant about 15mm gaming?

I am a die hard 28mm gamer, and I love the larger scale of the figs and you can see all of the details on the minis themselves.
Would I play 15mm game? Probably not, as they just seem too small for my tastes. That is why I got outta FoW.

Why do you 15mm gamers love this scale? What is your draw to this scale?

(yes yes yes… I know… 15 and 28mms are not 'scales'…)

Several reasons:

1) Economy of finances: It's a lot cheaper to load up a table w/ 15mm than 28mm
2) Economy of space: You don't need as much space for storage and to play games as 28mm
3) Miniature Quality: There are a lot of new faces in the 15mm market, and the quality of a lot of minis is excellent. Almost as good as some 28mm manufacturers.

I wanted to go with 6mm gaming for space and cost reasons, but I couldn't see the little dudes so I went with 15mm. I can see them well enough to distinguish what each figure is, and they are just small enough to handle larger battles without looking too big.

I have both. As for the 28s, I got the majority of mine as Christmas/Birthday presents, so I'll never sell or get rid of them. I agree that the detail is better and I will keep using them for modern skirmish gaming or use with rpg-ing, but if I was to start fresh today, I'd just do 15s, for the exact reasons that Turbo Pig just gave.

Pretty much the same reasons as Turbo Pig, in addition to available variety and depth of ranges.

28mm scenery is huge and hard to store; if I want a decent-sized city layout in that scale it will involve a fair bit of cash/time on my part to get it done. 15mm also allows me to purchase more character figures and build larger/more armed forces. It'd be pretty hard to build the Janitorial Nation Defense Force, the Orange Country Freedom League, the DOOP, the Coalition of Human Worlds, the NGR, and my gallery of wildcards that I currently have in 28mm for anything short of a fortune (money & space). I'm also willing to game in smaller scales for the mass look.

That being said, I certainly haven't pitched my 28mm Urban War figures or my 28mm fantasy figures. The EM-4 and 40k figures on the other hand have largely been gotten rid of.

With you 28mm is the scale of choice . ( cept space ship gaming , and WWII airplanes , and Ogre minis, )

To each his everlovin blue-eyed own, as pogo says. And I have loads of 28mm that I enjoy playing with. BUT . . .

15mm sculpts are often so good now that folks say "wow, those are 15s? I thought they were 28's!"

But the big reason, as others have said, is space. For skirmish, maybe the larger scale is better, but for mass battles there's just no comparison between what you can do in 15 and in 28. Larger battlefields equal more room to maneuver, larger units that look better, more realistic weapons ranges, etc. etc. Plus ease of storage and expense to obtain.

I think it depends to what extent one's focus is on the individual figure. We are 1.PLAYING 2.WARGAMES with 3. TOY SOLDIERS. To me, over-emphasizing #3, the quality of the toy soldier, can diminish the equally important elements of play, and the fact that we are playing/simulating an activity that is not taking place in a room or single building, but in a wide world.

When I starting gaming with miniatures in the mid-70s, I never would have thought to game with anything else but 25mm. But as time went on, I came to most of the same conclusions that others have already mentioned:
1) Cost
2) Space
3) Speed of painting. I enjoy painting, but it seemed like that was all I was doing. Too much painting, not enough gaming. Now, it takes me half the time to paint one 15mm as it does a 25/28mm. Also, yeah, there isn't as much detail as on a 25/28, but part of the challenge and fun is to see how well you can paint something at that size. Just look at the excellent work that Spacejacker does over at his blog: link

Going back to FoW, if you want to play a more tank-centric game, 28mm is going to be horribly expensive (build a platoon of tanks for $175 in 28mm? Build it in 15mm and its between $62.50 and as cheap as $20 USD!). WHile it is true that the figures themselves do not have as much detail, I find 15mm serves a different purpose. Not to say 28mm should be abandoned (much to the contrary), but the scale of figures you choose will in part dictate the type of game you play.

Damon.

1) Economy of finances: It's a lot cheaper to load up a table w/ 15mm than 28mm
2) Economy of space: You don't need as much space for storage and to play games as 28mm
3) Miniature Quality: There are a lot of new faces in the 15mm market, and the quality of a lot of minis is excellent. Almost as good as some 28mm manufacturers.

Agree with all three- I can store multiple 15mm forces in the space a few 28mm squads take up, I can buy multiple 15mm forces for the cost of a single 28mm force, and a lot of the current 15mm out now are pretty amazing.

15mm is also a good sweet spot for doing both mass battles and skirmish. The minis are small enough that fielding tons of them is feasible, but large enough that in skirmish game you can tell who is who.

Not saying I'd never do 28mm again (I still have a few projects) but I find 15mm more and more is the right scale for me.

-Will

15mm "Feels" better in scale on a tabletop. Realistically, a 28mm figure SHOULD be able to shoot across my entire yard. It feels very wrong. With 15mm figs it feels at least a bit more natural for the scales.

In addition, particularly with Sci Fi there is a LOT more choice in 15mm than 28mm right now.

The economics of finance and space are a big part of it for me.However,when I really got started in the mid 80's with miniatures,15mm seemed all the rage,and that's what I started with.At that time it seemd to me that 25's were fading out in popularity,and didnt come back until the less expensive Old Glory stuff came onto the market.That being said,I did dabble with 28's for 5 or so years,but I went back to 15's,selling off the vast majority of my collection of the bigger boys. I still do ECW in 28mm.

Thread derail alert:

I have always felt the 1/72 or 20mm is the perfect scale. Large enough for excellent detail, weapon recognition, and characterization not possible in 15mm, but small enough the be economical, save on space, and allow larger games. That would be the best.

I love my 28mm figures, but they are a pain to take down the club. Two armies fill the boot/trunk of my car. They take two trips to carry into the building and the room is on the third (UK style) floor. In 15mm an army fits in a smallish tool box.

If we are talking metal figures the weight difference is also substantial.

I agree with the Turbo Pig also. It is great to get a bunch of troops on the table at once and still have room to play. With 28s you need much more space.

My painting quality can not do 28mm justice. 15mm I'm okay, and maybe getting better. 28mm figures and buildings seem a bit too expensive for me.

i like 15mm for my acw armies simply because of # of poses. i like my civil was bases to look like they would in close battle:men loading, firing moving forword and waving hats etc. mean to say, a civil war line of battle was'nt a parade ground formation, might have been when the men were moving up to point of contact, but once the lines got close, i imagine it was a dog legged mess!
when i started back into acw, i was looking to do it in 10mm. really, my heart was set on 10mm. but the problem starts when i looked at GHQ and the figures are nice but they look like statues and then its only 2 poses per pack. then i started to see that the scale creep was 10x worse in10mm compared tpo 15mm. really, i hace used about 6 different 15mm manufactorers acw and i like them all. i would'nt mix the figures up on the same stand, but in the same army? teah, i can do that.

The scale is a function of the scope of the games that I want to play. My table is a fixed size, but I can put battalions on it in 6mm, companies in 15mm, and squads or maybe platoons in 28mm. I do like 28mm best, though not because of the quality of the figs, but because it allows me to make the most detailed terrain.

DBA is my primary game, and it's played in 15mm. My pet project Ambush Alley is also played in 15mm If I played that game in 28mm the cost would be about four times as much, and storage maybe 5-6 times more.

So cost, storage, and play space are all factors. Now days I think availability is also a factor. In the past if you wanted to play certain genres 28mm was your only choice now 15mm is so diverse there is almost no reason not to switch.

More for less you can almost get an entire squad of 15mm for the price of one 28mm figure.

Taking this at face value, not wanting to upset anyone – but assuming you really do want to know …

Advantages of 15mm over 28 (excluding cost, as that is not an issue for me):

1. Style. 15mm figures are generally nicer in style than 28 (exclude FOW from this – the figures are a bit like mini 28s and I don't much like them, although the vehicles are generally fine – so some Essex, most PP, masses of Corvus Belli, Mirliton, Black Hat etc.) if 28s looked as good as 15s I'd buy them.

2. Culture. 28 is more an fantasy/gamey sort of a scale than a historical scale and I find that off putting …
a: individual basing …
b: semi-fantasy figures (oversized weapons, over elaborate shield designs, banners etc., stuff that's 'just for fun': 28 puts cheap thrills way ahead of authenticity)
c: stock painting style: that crude '3 colour' system (done subtly, it can be quite good, but mostly its over stylised, looks appalling – then all the 28 fans drool over it saying how good it looks) … this is just aesthetics. They like it I don't.
d: tedious 'fanboy' drivel on TMP … how many times must we read 'if that was 28mm I'd buy it' or 'why don't people put the scale in the title: I'm only interested in 28mm' or giving rave reviews of stuff they've not even seen because I'm such a fan 'I've just got to have it'

Basically 28mm culture tends to put the figure (nice or nasty as it might be) first, whereas I believe in a more historical approach that puts the battle, scenario or whatever first and then defines the scale that is appropriate (that might be 54mm for a small action, it might be cardboard pieces for an operational game – though for me, figures are nearly always appropriate). A lot of what I don't like about the Warhammer derived games that 28mm enthusiasts seem to favour comes from putting the figure first. Individual basing lumped into movement trays (to me) has got to be about the ugliest thing on the wargames table … next to felt terrain on competition tables – but that's another thread :)

As a collector, I would dearly love to expand my 25/28 collection … I would dearly love to paint the boxes of Foundry and 1st Corps Hoplites I bought to update my award winning ancients (but then I visit TMP and get put off again)

As for 15mm, the detail is as good, the painting challenge is more exciting, the collection takes up much less space (so gives you greater bang for your metaphorical buck) and can be loaded into the car and transported to shows far more easily.

15mm requires far fewer figures to be convincing than 28 … that means 28mm battles for exhibition purposes rapidly get too big to manage easily. As a game designer I want a battle where I can easily reach to most parts of the table myself to place markers and make any moves where player clumsiness might cause issues.

As a visual spectacle, I want the full panorama of battle in my visual field so I'm pleased when we can get the whole 'statement' into, say 6'x6' or smaller (anything bigger becomes episodic: this view from this end of the table … something else from somewhere else) … I have to own up that I'm really taken with 10mm these days for shows 'panorama' (but 15mm still has a place).

That's a very detailed explanation. I've been doing my own wargaming plus exhibitions and shows for over 20 years and 28mm has become the odd man out scale in the equation (nothing much it's good for other than appealing to the enthusiasts that like it) …

Nevertheless, I am a collector and I will find a use for 28mm and will eventually ignore all the ugliness and paint up those Greeks. You will love them.

Meanwhile Simon Miller, Paul Innes, Simon Chick and co will continue to put on fantastic 'big battle' 28mm feasts that prove everything I've said above wrong (and I will continue to photograph them and publicise them on my blog)…

Just please don't show me another Space Marine, Zombie or 'Nun with a gun' when I want to see a regiment of proper 15mm historical figures ready for wargaming.

Thanks for asking

Phil
pbeyecandy.wordpress.com
ecwbattles.wordpress.com
soawargamesteam.blogspot.com

Everything, e.g.:

1. the way they scale out on the gametable for more realistic weapons ranges;
2. more room to maneuver on the tabletop too, since you get 3x – 4x times the tabletop space vs. 25mm – 30mm figs/vehicles;
3. the cost is much lower, which is important if you are on a budget, or want to field more than one vehicle per side;
4. they are easy to paint;
5. they look great in large numbers;
6. they are still large enough to base individually, but small enough to put several on a base too, if desired;
7. storage is a lot easier, again especially for vehicles;
8. they are much lighter, so easier to schlepp around to clubs, and conventions;
9. you can make villages and towns/cities easier in this scale, and they can be much larger than the 25mm/28mm ones in the same footprint;
10. since they are less expensive, you can field many more armies for the cost of far fewer, larger ones;
11. in some of the larger scales, certain vehicles just aren't available at all, since they are so big, or if they are, may be overly cost prohibitive, e.g. Dropships, large sailing vessels, etc.;
12. and most importantly to me, the quality and more numerous figure selection of some of the latest 15mm/18mm figures ranges is much better than that of many/most 25mm/28mm figs, especially in the Sci-Fi arena. In a lot of cases, no new 25mm/28mm figs have been released by certain companies, to fill out the current offerings, and in some cases they've actually gone OOP. Even fewer new 25mm/28mm Sci-Fi vehicles are being produced, and sadly, a number of the good ones have gone OOP.

In contrast, 15mm/18mm Sci-Fi seems to be growing significantly, and Blue Moon just released a very nice looking, and fairly comprehensive range of 15mm/18mm pirates.

Its a good compromise scale. 28mm has a better visual look, 6mm is what you want to fight or refight a battle. 15mm will do both, though neither as well.

Speed of painting and the fact that, like Schlesien, my painting skills are not up to doing justice to or emulating some of the 28mm examples out there.

The ground to figure scale for 15mm is slightly less ridiculous than it is for 25mm.
But only slightly.

It also gives cheap gamers the illusion of virtue if they buy far too many figures.
For some odd reason, they feel less guilty over indulging in smaller scales than larger ones.

Gaming in 15mm scales gives the gamer delusions of rationality.
If they really meant what they say when comparing their niche to 25mm, they would go with 6mm, instead of kidding themselves.

As for me, I game in 15mm FoW because that's what all the Cool Kids are doing, and I have no mind of my own. The game would be so much better in 6mm or 1:300 scale., but I am afraid to speak up.

25/28mm makes for good looking figures but silly looking big battles and units over a platoon in size. Skirmishing in 25/28 with 1 figure equals 1 individual, I can see the sense. Battles with 25/28mm figures in units of battalion or brigade size simply looks silly unless you are playing on a gym floor.

I am prejudiced in that most of my gaming is in smaller scale and I consider 15mm my skirmish scale. Bottom line is I do not care how any one figure looks but I really like the look of a table full of 50-100 figure units.

I must be an odd wargamer then, because I don't limit myself to a size in my collections.

My Arab-Israeli Wars collection is in 1/285 scale (GHQ minis);

My Second/Third Crusade collection uses 15mms (Legio Heroica and Essex Miniatures)

Seven Years War and AWI is in 28mm (Crusader, Fife & Drum, Minden Minis and even some Foundrys!)

My WWII and Moderns are all in 20mms!! (Britannia, Kelly's Heroes, Battlefield, Elhiem and Under the Fire minis)

And XIXth Century armies in 10mms!

I believe that the actual question should be: why do you put size limits to your wargaming, instead adapting to what you find more suitable to your needs/tastes for each period?

Basileus66 … No 54mm skirmish stuff? :)

Seriously though, you are absolutely right: a collection isn't really a collection if it hasn't samples from the wealth of different sizes soldiers come in these days. Dull, too.

I am still trying to find a theme that suits the 6mm gap in my own collection … I have no Marlburians, and have enjoyed the Black Powder games (20mm, as it happens) I have participated in (then I see 18th Cent. 10mm displays and waver, they look just right …)

JTOFM is right about illusions and delusions, even if he puts it a little harshly: wargames are all about creating illusions and about empowering the imagination. If we weren't tricking ourselves it wouldn't be working!

Phil
soawargamesteam.blogspot.com
etc.

I do have a few 28s, but they are mostly for Colonial adventure/RPG type gaming.

15s are a decent compromise between cost, looks, ease of storage and transport and figure scale relative to ground scale. The cost differential isn't so attractive these days and I'm increasingly drawn to even smaller scales (6mm and 2mm) or my first love, 20mm. I've generally found 28s to be expensive, hard to store, hard to carry, hard to paint well and they look completely stupid playing anything other than a skirmish unless you have a huge table (with correspong cost, storage and transport issues). Which is why I've only got a couple of boxes of them.

Hilariously my latest project is 54mm, but hey, they are plastic, so cheap and easy to carry, even if a PITA to store. HG Wellsian toy soldier stuff.

How about a new thread, why are plastic soldiers such fun to paint? It just never grows old for me, even after 40 years. Metal is just so boring and serious.

Simple economy reasons,
Metal 28mm figs were and still are a luxury.

I have tried to build 25mm armies before but I never really stuck to it. I am a fan of horse and musket periods and like the big battalions but the big problem for me was the cavalry.
A nice big cavalry unit was and is, just too expensive and I couldn't justify spending that much on a minor hobby. The 6mm ranges were tempting but I like the look of a 15mm figure. To me its a good compromise between price and detail.

As for me, I game in 15mm FoW because that's what all the Cool Kids are doing, and I have no mind of my own. The game would be so much better in 6mm or 1:300 scale., but I am afraid to speak up.

You should try it John! Works pretty well. I started a FoW DAK force (just Pz IIIs and IIs right now, no infantry yet) just for this reason. Also helps you can get a platoon of tanks from GHQ for $10 USD…

Damon.

I concur that FOW looks a lot better in 1/300th scale, if you use the standard movement and gun ranges, since there is no need to then park the vehicles track-to-track on the tabletop, like at a Used-AFV Lot.

When people do that, it just screams Priority Artillery Target to me…..

Space – but I prefer 10mm, not 15.

Interesting.
Thanks for the input.

My 28's are for skirmishing. My 15's are for battles that fit on my 4 X 6 table.

1. About 1/4 to 1/6 the price of 28mm.

2. Large enough to do skirmish gaming and rpgs.

3. Still small enough to do mass battles.

28mm for skirmishing on our 3'x3' table
15mm for battles on our 3'x3' table
15mm for skirmishing on our footsquare battlefield

So I guess it's the relationship between size of figure, size of force and size of battlefield.

I use 15mm for skirmish/DBx gaming so that I can use a smaller board. My personal big-battle collections are in 2 & 6mm.

The only 28mm figures I own are for club games against fellow gamers who only collect larger models.