"Boutique Games, good or bad?" Topic

5. Rules are fine, if they are/were reasonable, but I will not buy the outrageously priced minis.

Far to many other interests, and needs for much more reasonably priced ones, so they get the nod first, and last.

One thing I completely forgot is that I did start buying into one boutique game, namely Super Dungeon Explore back in the "preview release" stage when the miniatures were in metal and sold individually. Now that it's turned into more of a boardgame (only available as a boxed set with plastic figures and a 2D gameboard, and being sold/marketed through boardgame distribution channels) I don't think it belongs in the category of boutique miniature games anymore. I'm a little disappointed they went with the full-on boardgame approach, but might still buy the boxed set, paint the figures and build a 3D dungeon.

"Guess what? You need 10 minis or fewer for these games. Your total *ARMY* can be less than the cost of a single battalion of Napoleonic minis. I can buy TWO armies and the rulebook for the cost of a single force in other games."

LitS: For the price of one boutique game army you could by several 10 figure forces for games like Ganesha's Song Series or our own 5150/Warrior Heroes/Six Gun Sound games.

GW gets flak for charging a lot of single figures. I do not give other companies a pass because their proprietary setting does not require more than 10.

Supply and demand. Yes. Say no to proprietary settings.

EDIT: Apologies. Make that EXPENSIVE proprietary settings. Look at Killer B games for example. "Geezers: Shut It!" while not strictly proprietary does call for a limited number of niche figures that are sold at reasonable prices.

Boutique minis are a poor business model for consumers to buy into.

Comparing the Geezers minis to Infinity minis, all I can say is, you get what you pay for. .

2 – if it is the kind of thing that interests me

4 and 7 and 7B

1, hands down. Most of the games I play these days fall into this category.

Say no to proprietary settings.

What if I happen to like a proprietary setting, and find that potentially suitable replacement miniatures from cheaper companies don't exist or just don't look as good?

Boutique minis are a poor business model for consumers to buy into.

This whole hobby is a poor business model for consumers to buy into. If I think I'll enjoy something and have the money to spare, I'll buy it.

Whether that something is six well-sculpted ordinary samurai from Kingsford or one very stylish, very well-sculpted fantasy Japanese necromancer for the game Bushido is just a matter of what I'm in the mood for. I won't automatically enjoy the cheaper / more quantitative option more.

My reply was to LitS's "guess what" comment.

You are of course free to spend your hobby money as you please. Market forces will do the rest.

Saying that figures are cheaper per force size simply doesn't hold water. Stating that Rules A require fewer figures at an extremely high price point per figure makes it cheaper than another set of figures at a reasonable price point per figure that don't require specific rules at all, is quite silly. An overpriced figure is just that, a figure that does not have the associated worth that it's MSRP would suggest it has.

That being said, no miniature producer is obliged to cave to market demands or run their company with the aim of maximizing profits; this is a hobby after all.

13- tried a couple and did not enjoy them.

14- I buy a figure here and there but I'm not interested in collecting a game.

15- The rules have too many problems. Its seems like the figures are the focus and the game is just an afterthought.

3B for me – more likely to buy the rules and then get cheaper figure equivalents if all the "official" figures are £5 each or more.

1 !!!!!!!!!!

Saying that figures are cheaper per force size simply doesn't hold water. Stating that Rules A require fewer figures at an extremely high price point per figure makes it cheaper than another set of figures at a reasonable price point per figure that don't require specific rules at all, is quite silly. An overpriced figure is just that, a figure that does not have the associated worth that it's MSRP would suggest it has.

That being said, no miniature producer is obliged to cave to market demands or run their company with the aim of maximizing profits; this is a hobby after all.

I'm not trying to pick you out, I am replying more to the point of view. My question in general is: if the option is to not have the figure or game available at all or it be more expensive, would people rather have it not available?

The problem is that figures for boutique games don't sell as many as figures for mainstream games. Its a simple numbers game. If the company wants to stay in business and produce games and figures, then their prices need to be high to account for the lower number of sales. If someone was producing more mainstream figures, you could charge less knowing that you'd get more people purchasing them. It seems your damned if you do and damned if you don't.

Why do you think most companies (large or small) price character figures higher than a regular grunt figure? Its simple – volume of purchases. People only need one of a character figure, but will purchase lots of grunt figures. With the grunt figures, the cost is offset by volume. With character figures, the cost must be offset by a higher price as it won't sell nearly as many.

When you have a skirmish size game where most models are character models, this situation is amplified as most figures will be one off purchases by a person (because they only need one of a certain figure). This makes skirmish games more expensive on a direct comparison between two figures.

Fortunately for a lot of people, skirmish games are a lot of fun. I realise there are lots that prefer larger scale games, and each to their own. But I think that both can co-exist. The price difference between them is forced somewhat by the scale and concept of the game.

At the end of the day, the simple fact is that if you can't cover your costs, you lose money. Whether its a hobby or a business, you can't just throw money into the air. I just hope that people can better understand the major differences at play here.

Happy gaming everyone.
Cheers,
Ben.

I play mostly skirmish games.

To say that any figures used for skirmish games must be $10 a figure or more is false.

To say that each business must measure it's costs versus profits is true.

It's up to each consumer to decide what is a good value.

If someone wants to pay 9.5 Euros for a single pirate figure (freebooters fate) that is entirely their business. Mono I am talking to you! : )

You are right, not all skirmish minis should be $10 USD+ but they will be more expensive than a figure that people need multiples of.

While I do agree it's a bit illogical to say boutique game figures are "not really" more expensive once you factor in the number of figures needed for the game, I still think it comes down to enjoyability vs cost, not quantity vs cost. I could very well enjoy one £10 figure more than ten £1 figures, depending on what those figures are. When that one expensive figure is something very unique, such as the Kato Kubiashi character from Bushido, I'm prepared to buy it (incidentally, this particular figure actually costs more like £6 given the price of the boxed set it comes in and the number of figures in the box – and I thoroughly like all the other figures in the box, too). Which is not to say I'm oblivious to cost – it's just a matter of my finding a figure to be worth the price it commands.

But I think that both can co-exist.

This is what I'm finally trying to get at. Boutique games are enjoyable to some of us and enrichen the hobby. I say "yes" to them, even if I haven't really dived in yet.

Boutique game figures are more expensive..

Boutique games are not.

This is the point that is being made. It will cost me more to put together a decent sized game-worthy force for Warhammer, WarMachine, Flames of War, Field of Glory, Hail Caesar or Black Powder than to do the same for Malifaux, Anima Tactics, Infinity or Bushido. Regardless of the cost of the individual models.

This is the calculation that many of us make when playing these games.

In my case, I tend to buy into games because I like the models. If I have to pay more to get a model I like that's the calculation I have to make. But, if you need fewer models to play the game then that is a mitigating factor in my decision.

Saying that the number of models needed makes no difference is no more logical than claiming that the cost per model makes no difference. They both have an impact.

But do Boutique games have the life span of more mainstream Fantasy, SciFi or Historical games? It may well cost less to buy a force for one of the Boutique games than a 25mm Warhammer Army, but is the Boutique game still going to be around in 2 or 3 years? Is it still going to use the same figures you bought when it first came out? Will they still be competitive if they are in use?
These games seem to be a "fashion trend" rather than a long term gaming investment. In order to keep the revenue/income stream Boutique game companies will need to add new figures and factions to the game, thus expanding it from its original incarnation. So do buyers keep adding to their collection? (in which case the perceived lower cost per army claim is false) or not?

It would be interesting to see some numbers on sales of second and third tranche releases compared to initial release. Maybe a valid question for a follow up poll to this would be: How long do you expect to be playing a particular Boutique Game? I would be surprised if that turns out to be much more than 9 months – 1 year.

This is the point that is being made. It will cost me more to put together a decent sized game-worthy force for Warhammer, WarMachine, Flames of War, Field of Glory, Hail Caesar or Black Powder than to do the same for Malifaux, Anima Tactics, Infinity or Bushido. Regardless of the cost of the individual models.

Yes, this, a thousand times this. I don't care if your mass-army game figures are 1$ a piece, if I need 200 of them to field an army then I am still spending more than on a game with 10$ figures and I need 5 of them. This is why I gave up on doing Fields of Glory in 28mm, then gave up on Fields of Glory all together (never mind the fact that I'd never get them all painted).

As for if the miniatures are in fact worth the cost, that is ultimately a judgement call- I am willing to pay more for a miniature I like, others may not be, and there is no problem with either approach.

-Will

Of course if i'm smart I can base my 200 figurs to allow me to play skirmish games as well. Not an either or.

I actually prefer small-scale skirmish games, but there are plenty of those in existence that are not married to a particular set of overpriced figures. Rules should not be made to sell models, each should stand on their own merits.

Considering that Infinity was originally a roleplaying setting that the guys at Corvus Belli created, I'm happy that they stuck with their own talent-set: created really cool, highly-detailed miniatures.

It's certainly possible to play Infinity with more generic minis, you could easily use modern US and Middle Easterners for Ariadna and Haqq. You run into trouble when you need to proxy PanOceania, Yu Jing, and the Nomads.

But I'll bite one more time on your bait, guys. The average GW character (that you only need one in your collection) is how much money? $20 USD? The average infinity model that you only need one of in your collection is $12. Stop comparing models you need dozens of with models you only need one of.

I am going to publish a game in which you only need one miniature to play. These miniatures will therefore cost 50 USD each. What a bargain!

Of course, we are allowed to spend our money as we wish…;)

Ok… non-GW example… Say I want to buy into em-4's Combat Zone (I already own it, in fact). If I go the most expensive route with pre-painted figures I'm paying 2.45 pounds per figure, and need five to play the game (twice that amount if I bring an opposing force). How does that compare to boutique games? Combat Zone is non-proprietary but does enjoy miniature support via their ex-Grenadier figures and other offerings. I don't have much of a horse in this race, admittedly, because 15mm sci-fi doesn't really have a "boutique" or "corporate" presence as of yet.

But do Boutique games have the life span of more mainstream Fantasy, SciFi or Historical games?

Let's see here… Infinity has been out for about 5 years, is releasing it's second expansion book this Christmas, and has over 200 different minis. Malifaux started out as cool minis and then got rules, has been out for about 2 years, and is expanding even faster than Infinity. Anima Tactics has been out close to 5 years, but it took them a while for FFG to release the rules. Hell Dorado's original company went under, but the minis and setting were so cool that the same company that makes Anima Tactics bought the entire IP and is making it in the US. The Hell Dorado relaunch is barely 6 months old, we'll see how it does.

non-GW example… Say I want to buy into em-4's Combat Zone … 2.45 pounds per figure, and need five to play the game (twice that amount if I bring an opposing force). How does that compare to boutique games?

Well, those EM4 prepaints are about $35 a box in the US, and an Infinity Starter box is ~$45, but the Infinity *rules* are free. Really pretty comparable in terms of cost (assuming 2 starters and a copy of the rules), but would you care to compare the quality of the minis?

Not saying that EM4 doesn't do nice minis, but to say that their minis are equal in detail to Infinity, Hell Dorado, or Anima Tactics is … comparing apples and oranges.

2 Warmahordes, 7TV, Malifaux are all fun. 7TV is my favourite, because I'm not bound by faction restrictions.

I like apples

I like oranges

I'll buy both

Or neither.

This debate over whether boutique games are super good value is a bit stale – some people think $5 USD+ per foot figure is a bargain if they get a great sculpt that they will paint up and base to a modelling diorama standard.

Other people think $5 USD+ per figure is a bit pricey and think it's better to buy 5x£1 figures instead.

Neither is right.

Neither is wrong.

They just want different things.

Chances of persuading someone who wants to game with 200 figures a side that actually 5 figures a side is better – pretty much nil.

And vice-versa.

Hre's an interesting bug.

£1
£5
$5 USD+

as soon as I add the + at the end of the currency amount it changes to US dollars.

I am going to publish a game in which you only need one miniature to play. These miniatures will therefore cost 50 USD each. What a bargain!

If that miniature turns out to be so awesome and unique it's worth $50 USD, I'll consider buying it.

Say I want to buy into em-4's Combat Zone (I already own it, in fact). If I go the most expensive route with pre-painted figures I'm paying 2.45 pounds per figure, and need five to play the game (twice that amount if I bring an opposing force). How does that compare to boutique games? Combat Zone is non-proprietary but does enjoy miniature support via their ex-Grenadier figures and other offerings.

The Combat Zone miniatures are good enough to be worth the price they command. Many boutique game miniatures are good enough to be worth the price they command.

Let's see here…

Add Dark Age and Rezolution to that list, alongside the collection from Cell: Ronin, Lab, Krash, and the 54mm Fantasy thing with the name I'm spacing on at the moment. Early editions of Confrontation also qualify.

Current contenders include Mercs.

Going on model count, most of the spaceship games are in this category as well.

My problem with this is two-fold. First, I'm seeing a couple people use the term as an indication of disdain. Secondly, the usage so far ignores the basic fact that the entire hobby is "boutique", making any attempt to keep a tight definition useless. Before too long you can define a "boutique game" as anything that is in the retail channels that isn't Warhammer or D&D.

Congratulations, you've found the industry leaders by the process of elimination.

What is your view on the growing number of "Boutique Games"? (see below for the type of things this covers)

1: Fantastic. I collect/play several of them.
2: I like them. I collect/play one or two.
3: I would try them if they were not so expensive.
4: Nothing against the idea but none have interested me yet.
5: Would not consider them.
6: Definite interest but I am waiting for one to really grab me.
7: Never heard of them

"But do Boutique games have the life span of more mainstream Fantasy, SciFi or Historical games? It may well cost less to buy a force for one of the Boutique games than a 25mm Warhammer Army, but is the Boutique game still going to be around in 2 or 3 years?"

Probably, if people support it with their dollars, if the company that produces it has realistic expectations of it.

"Is it still going to use the same figures you bought when it first came out? Will they still be competitive if they are in use?"

This isn't Games Workshop, is it? As far as I know, GW is the only company that does this kind of thing.

"These games seem to be a "fashion trend" rather than a long term gaming investment. In order to keep the revenue/income stream Boutique game companies will need to add new figures and factions to the game, thus expanding it from its original incarnation."

Why? Why can't it be a game with a limited number of models and rules? Why does it need to keep changing and expanding? Seems to me that you are stuck on this idea that without expansion or change then they suddenly become unplayable or lose their long term appeal. There is a particular mindset that you represent, here.

"So do buyers keep adding to their collection? (in which case the perceived lower cost per army claim is false) or not?"

If I set the bounds to the limit of my collection, what I want to get out of it, what my particular style of game is, then that's up to me. Certainly, I don't have to even constantly expand on the same game. Why not build up on one game, enjoy it and collect other games of interest? Why should I have to spend all my time and money on constantly collecting and recollecting the same game over and over, rather than collect it, play it, collect something else, play them both, collect a third, play all three, etc.? Instead, I'm caught in a loop of always expanding or replacing the same thing forever because the company business model pushes me to? How is that appealing?

@Billthecat: I think Soda Pop Miniatures has beaten you to it… Their Relic Knight game is supposed to be a one-on-one gladiatorial battle between big stompy robots.

And I happen to like those minis! link