Editor in Chief Bill | 06 Oct 2011 11:37 a.m. PST |
In the unofficial background material included in Tomorrow's War, war on Earth breaks out when the U.S. discovers an inhabitable planet through the stargate, but refuses to share with other countries. In the future, should countries be able to lay claim to entire worlds? Or should colony worlds belong to the human race in general? * yes, claim the worlds by nation * no, leave the worlds unclaimed * no opinion |
Only Warlock | 06 Oct 2011 11:44 a.m. PST |
Yes, Claim worlds by nation. (After sterilizing the native species by orbital bombardment of course. Unless they can be "enlisted" in making inexpensive warships for us in our newly constructed factories, which should go without saying.) Kai Klingon! |
jpattern2 | 06 Oct 2011 11:46 a.m. PST |
I suspect that laying claim by corporation would take place, too. |
Little Big Wars | 06 Oct 2011 11:46 a.m. PST |
Should? Probably not. Ultimately they can lay claim to whatever they want, but the issue will ultimately be settled by violence and/or diplomacy if anyone cares to contest it. I suspect that laying claim by corporation would take place, too. I'm actually expecting a corporation to declare its sovereignty on this planet during my lifetime so that is also likely. |
Thomas Whitten | 06 Oct 2011 12:32 p.m. PST |
I suspect that laying claim by corporation would take place, too. Something similiar happened with the East India Company: link plus what Warlock said. |
infojunky | 06 Oct 2011 12:35 p.m. PST |
Well in the state case the US, or more notably the administration making said claim would be in violation of both US and International law. But realistically they only really could be claimed by powers that could access said property. So there real question is do they have the clout to do so? |
emckinney | 06 Oct 2011 12:42 p.m. PST |
What U.S. laws would this violate? Are there really international laws on terra incognita? |
billthecat | 06 Oct 2011 12:43 p.m. PST |
Politics! Politics! I am a model of self restraint
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Grand Duke Natokina | 06 Oct 2011 12:44 p.m. PST |
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Frederick | 06 Oct 2011 12:49 p.m. PST |
Exerting sovereignty implies the ability to enforce same – the ability for a nation or corporation to lay claim to something is dependent on being able to get there, take possession and then hold on when the next lot of no-goodniks shows up Corporations could do it for a while, but I suspect that they would lack the ability to hang on once governments – especially planetary ones – decided to get into the game As for nations, you would have to have pretty robust space-faring capacity |
Ghostrunner | 06 Oct 2011 12:49 p.m. PST |
But realistically they only really could be claimed by powers that could access said property. Interesting point. The cynic in me thinks, though if the U.S. (or another country like England) were to invent a technology that allowed access to another Earth-Like planet, not only would other nations demand equal claim to the planet, but to the technology as well. The sad fact is the US or England would seriously consider the claim. Russia or China would respond with a 'yeah, whatever, right
' My limited understanding of the law in this case says a country can only claim the territory in space that they are able to make immediate use of.
Claiming something up to a continent might be possible, but the whole planet would be pushing it. I expect corporations would need a national sponsor for their claim. Imagine the first Earth-Like planet, claimed by Liberia
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Dropzonetoe | 06 Oct 2011 12:50 p.m. PST |
Don't we we have laws making it so none can claim the moon? I suspect that would be the case right up until someone starts putting "research" teams on a planet/moon
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Dragon Gunner | 06 Oct 2011 1:04 p.m. PST |
I predict nations and corporations. Corporations will probably get exclusive rights to lease / exploit the planet for a set period of time in exchange for developing the world. The corporation will still be subject to it's nations government. Now for some cool gaming fodder
Weyland Yutani has just sold rights to this planet to the Shanghai CO-OP. You will now be working under their rules and regulations and subject to Chinese law. On top of all that you will take a 75% pay cut effective right now! If you don't like it you can buy one ticket home for 500,000 credits and I am truly sorry if you you were stupid enough to start a family
Planetary revolt here we come! |
Maddaz111 | 06 Oct 2011 1:13 p.m. PST |
The first nation state that puts a large mass driver in space that can shoot small (35m – 100m) asteroid sized pieces at Earth from the asteroid belt can pretty much name terms for ownership of the Earth. Drop one or two large rocks into the Atlantic and you can ruin western Europe and north America for a couple of years at least, if you did it once a month for a year the western world would be heading for the stone age. He who controls the High Frontier
can have the new world at the end of the stargate, and if you cannot take the mass driver back
bye bye whatever country you came from, welcome to the new world of the god king Pepsico (c) |
Timbo W | 06 Oct 2011 1:34 p.m. PST |
It'll be that same old story- we establish a colony on the planet and our rivals also establish a colony we help the colonists fight off the rivals the colonists rebel aginst us the colonists ally with our rivals and declare independence after a century or so the colonists become our strongest allies |
Parzival | 06 Oct 2011 1:49 p.m. PST |
Possession is 9/10s, etc. Ergo, whoever controls the access controls the claim. Period. Everybody else can jump up and down and whine about it all they want, but if you can't get there, it ain't yours. Cue world war whatever
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GarrisonMiniatures | 06 Oct 2011 2:14 p.m. PST |
Depends on how many worlds become available. |
Cacique Caribe | 06 Oct 2011 4:32 p.m. PST |
By nation. So, the sooner the US sets foot on Mars (and keeps it there), the better. Dan |
Mako11 | 06 Oct 2011 4:41 p.m. PST |
I imagine whomever gets there first, and/or has the power to keep it from falling into the hands of others. Since we're pushing to privatize space exploration, my money's on the mega-corporations. |
Lee Brilleaux | 06 Oct 2011 5:37 p.m. PST |
I have checked with the kings of Spain and Portugal. They think it's a great idea. The pope's on board, as well. |
Willtij | 06 Oct 2011 5:57 p.m. PST |
I would suppose that being humans as we are we would do whatever is most greedy, most ego enhancing and most harmful to all involved except the (very) few reaping all the profits. |
Etranger | 06 Oct 2011 6:08 p.m. PST |
Greed will win out as usual
How is the Bongolesian Space programme going BTW? |
Wellspring | 06 Oct 2011 6:25 p.m. PST |
Current law: Under the Moon Treaty, space is the "common heritage of mankind". Territory can't be claimed. Accidents in space are the responsibility of the at-fault party's nation, not them or their company. The soviets designed the treaty to make it hard for US corporations or individuals to do anything in space by giving them a liability problem. They also wanted to avoid the US claiming the Moon. OK, so who gets what depends entirely on what kind of setting you have. If we're talking our solar system and multi-month voyages, you'll see state-sponsored colonies at first (probably with cooperative funding from contractors hoping to sub-let to private partners). Eventually, corporate-sponsored habitats appear. Either way, it's impossible to patrol a habitat that's months away from the law. Governments will probably assert sovereignty, just because why not? But can they actually wield power in an isolated habitat? I doubt it. Eventually, when it gets cheap enough for less well-heeled groups to mount a colony effort, you'll see basically total lawlessness in the habitats (too many to patrol, each too small to justify a permanent police presence), with governments laying down the law against the most egregious violators. Now let's look at ships with unrealistic delta-v and thrust. The whole picture changes. Police ships in that case CAN flit from habitat to habitat, so you'll see national sovereignty far more respected. Now we go to FTL, and I think you'll see the same dynamic. When it's hard to establish colonies, governments and big corps hold all the cards. When it's cheaper, then there are lots of colonies, and how well policed they are will depend on how long it takes to go from colony to colony: short easy trips result in national laws being respected, and long expensive trips leave laws being flouted. Habitable planets make colonies cheaper to set up (debateably). But they're big enough that you can have a planetary governor to enforce the law. OTOH, that just means that would-be separatists set up on more remote planets. In the case Bill brings up (just one habitable world), you'll HAVE to have nations fighting over control of the world. A multinational coalition is possible if the consequences of war on earth are too severe, but even then you'll see a lot of power politics. |
richarDISNEY | 07 Oct 2011 7:47 a.m. PST |
Finders keepers? Who has the biggest corporate sponsorship? Unless they are ten foot tall blue cat people. I know how that ends up.
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Mako11 | 07 Oct 2011 9:57 a.m. PST |
I imagine that treaty won't be worth the paper it's written on, once we can reach someplace valuable in space. "Either way, it's impossible to patrol a habitat that's months away from the law". Apparently, you haven't seen the movie Outland. Difficult, but not impossible, at least for Sean Connery. |
John the Greater | 07 Oct 2011 10:36 a.m. PST |
You can claim anything you want, making it stick is another question. Why would anyone think the experience of all human history won't apply to our occupation of other planets? |
Ambush Alley Games | 07 Oct 2011 11:01 a.m. PST |
Note that not all colony worlds in TW's "future history" are colonized by a single nation. Some are balkanized (Glory), some were colonized by members of a treaty organization (Eureka), and some are joint efforts between multiple nations and corporations. The US only colonization of Grissom has some serious impact on its political and economic stability, too. It's not all fireworks and apply pie. ;) Shawn. |
SECURITY MINISTER CRITTER | 07 Oct 2011 11:40 a.m. PST |
I do believe there is a U.N. Treaty that covers this. Something about all worlds in this system belong to all countries. With FTL, I would assume that that treaty would be in effect. |
billthecat | 07 Oct 2011 11:44 a.m. PST |
All hail Bongolesiaaaaaaaaaaaaaa!!!!!!! |
Wellspring | 07 Oct 2011 1:00 p.m. PST |
Mako, you're right. I try to avoid Sean Connery-patrolled regions due to the unhealthy amount of Zardoz-ness. ;) SMC: That's the Moon Treaty I referred to. And I agree that the soviets intended to use it to restrain the US from claiming the moon, but wouldn't have hesitated to break or "reinterpret" the treaty to allow THEM to claim it if they felt they could get away with it. |
Mark Plant | 07 Oct 2011 1:42 p.m. PST |
A corporation with a strong territorial base IS a nation. Examples include the Knights of Malta. How does the fact that they first were non-territorial affect the reality that they ended up becoming rulers of a territorial state? |
The G Dog | 08 Oct 2011 12:20 p.m. PST |
The treaty in question is the "Treaty on Principles Governing the Activities of States in the Exploration and Use of Outer Space, including the Moon and Other Celestial Bodies." link Only 98 signatories. So if a cunning corporation incorporated in a non-signatory country, are they free to carry on as they see fit? Including the claiming of celestial objects by use or occupation? Liberia and Bahrain, I'm looking at you!)
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capncarp | 13 Dec 2011 9:11 p.m. PST |
Anybody gotten any emails from the Nigerian Space Minister yet? |
RTJEBADIA | 13 Dec 2011 10:22 p.m. PST |
Much like in the American West before many Europeans or European Americans were present, I bet that there will be a lot of claiming and not a whole lot of enforcing. When someone DOES enforce, this tends to lead to smallish 'colonial' wars. All sorts of groups will claim, and they'll all claim different amounts
Once things get a bit more wide and open, I bet you'll either go one way or the other at the beginning, but before too long you end up with "chinese planets" and "american planets" and once you start having a few of those then they'll colonize whole planets
it requires a bit of a paradigm shift to have global governments, but once it starts happening it'll start becoming more frequent. |
Mako11 | 13 Dec 2011 11:38 p.m. PST |
I'll be claiming the nice, tropical sea ones, for myself. |