| Dinger | 07 Sep 2011 7:46 a.m. PST |
Hi, I just purchased a copy of MiG Killers on ebay but unfortunately, the Aircraft Data Cards were missing. The seller didn't know, and was kind enough to give me a partial refund on my purchase, so I still have all the other components (rules, etc.) Does anyone have, or know where I could gain access to the ADC's? Thanks Dingo |
| Chuckaroobob | 07 Sep 2011 1:32 p.m. PST |
Is this the old game from Lou Zoochi/Gamescience? If so, I've got it around here someplace and can make a photocopy of whatever you need. C'ya, Charles |
| Dinger | 07 Sep 2011 7:34 p.m. PST |
Yes, Charles, that is the one. If I could get copies of the Aircraft Data Cards that would be fantastic. Dingo |
| Chuckaroobob | 08 Sep 2011 6:40 a.m. PST |
Ok, I'll look around for it. Finding it could be a day or two. You can contact me at broskadlec @ aol.com C'ya, Charles |
| Chuckaroobob | 08 Sep 2011 7:05 a.m. PST |
Hi, we lucked out. Found it and the expansion kit with 50 additional planes, too. Just noticed one of the new scenarios is Rodan vs. Japanese Air Self Defense Force. Bet that one gets played a lot. Send me your address and I'll send you the stuff. C'ya, Charles |
| Dinger | 09 Sep 2011 7:51 a.m. PST |
Hi Charles, That's great, I just sent you an email. Thank you very much! Dingo |
| cmdrpowers | 09 Sep 2011 8:35 p.m. PST |
Hi Dinger, This is Michael Scott Kurtick (otherwise known as CmdrPowers). I'm rather interested in your purchase of MiG Killers. Did you pick it up to complete your collection or did you purchase it because you actually wished to play? The game is long out of print, but Rocky and I have occasionally dabbled at updating it to more modern standards of production and simulation. While not anywhere near as rigorous a simulation as, say, Birds of Prey, MiG Killers was a pretty good energy game in its day and certainly gave the player a good idea of how air combat worked. I hope you enjoy your purchase, warts and all! 8-) |
| Dinger | 10 Sep 2011 9:45 p.m. PST |
Hi Michael, I actually bought it to play. I have JD Webster's games (Speed of Heat, Air Superiority, etc) and I played his Fighting Wings series for years, but I'm looking to dial back the complexity to get my daughter's fiancee and his brother into air wargaming, while still having enough credible simulation to satisfy myself. From all I've seen, MiG Killers will fit the bill, and I like what I've read of the rules so far. I'm sure we will enjoy it. Of course, an update down the road would be nice :-) Dinger |
| cmdrpowers | 11 Sep 2011 8:04 a.m. PST |
We wanted to add more aircraft, update the ones we had, bring in AG rules, etc. Over the course of 30 years, I put together a very complex version that rivals BoP for detail (and playability) as well as a set for kids that has been extensively played by 8-14 year olds, but has only the flavor, not the sim. Where MiG Killers fails is in its extremely optimistic g-force allowance for diverse planes. We have MiG-9s and MiG-25s capable of pulling up to 9 gees when in real life, they would get nowhere near that. At the time, we based this assumption on the idea that a pilot would pull the stick as hard as he could to avoid being shot down, no matter what his plane (or he) could take. The reality, of course, is that at some flight regimes it is impossible for a fighter to pull X gees. Also, MiG Killers' simple combat resolution is fun, but woefully unrealistic and needs a serious makeover. What MiG Killers does do well is to reflect on the importance of maintaining energy. The speed loss per g is a reflection of the aircraft's wing loading at combat weight and the game does show the stall speed going up with gee. We're proud of what we did way back when, but it is a bit dated. |
| cmdrpowers | 11 Sep 2011 8:07 a.m. PST |
These days, I play BoP when I'm serious and WoW for fun. C21 is a great game for introductory play. And every once in a while, I drag out MiG Killers and prove that I still remember how to play it. 8-) |
| Dinger | 11 Sep 2011 1:57 p.m. PST |
I'd love to get into BoP but I'll nevr have an opponent for ftf play, and these days I no longer have the time for commited online play as I used to with the Fighting Wings games. The lack of altitude levels in C21 is a deal breaker for me, no matter how fun it might be--I just can't suspend that part of reality. Ever since Lou Zocchi did that piece in the March 1980 issue of Wargamers Digest about air combat games I've understood the importance of maintaining energy, and I look for games that model that. It may be dated, but I think MiG Killers will fit the balance of playability and complexity we need right now, and we can patch it with a few house rules. Heck, I think the engine could be used to brew up some fairly good WW2 rules also. |
| pseudopod52 | 05 Jul 2012 10:15 a.m. PST |
Hi Michael, Have you considered publishing the very complex version of Mig Killers, or producing a set of miniature rules of same as hinted in the original game? |
| Omemin | 05 Jul 2012 11:00 a.m. PST |
I played MiG Killers a lot back in the day. It worked very well. I loved the combination of playability and simulation. One caveat on that, though. I also loved Air War by SPI. |
| Number6 | 05 Jul 2012 3:28 p.m. PST |
Should be reissued as a pdf. |
| pseudopod52 | 06 Jul 2012 9:33 a.m. PST |
Releasing the rules and charts as PDF is the way to go. Right now I am playing the game using BoP's game map and miniatures as counters. |
| Dinger | 01 Aug 2012 1:54 p.m. PST |
I really like MiG Killers, a great combination of playability and realism. Played it many years back, and picked up a copy on eBay about a year ago. With a few homebrew rules added, it plays great. Some of the A/C need to be updated though, for info that wasn't available 30 years ago. Still one of my two games of choice for jet combat. An update would be fantastic, or even a pdf re-release. Dingo |
| Andy Doty | 26 Nov 2016 8:30 p.m. PST |
Hi all, is this thread dead, or are there still people looking at it? I'm interested in running this game vice CY6 JA to show my friends.
I played this a lot in 1983 while at Rotten Grotten going to Submarine School.
I can not tell if I have the MiG Killers or MiG Killers Expansion data cards anymore (I can only find one set), was there a MiG-17 in either? Respectfully,
Andy Doty |
| cmdrpowers | 27 Nov 2016 10:36 a.m. PST |
Hi Andy,
I'm pretty sure there's a MiG-17 Fresco in there. The Expansion set cards were larger than the ones in the original set.
I play Birds of Prey or Check Six lately, but I truly admire C21.
I retyped the MK rules, but have yet to publish them since I want to update a number of things. One thing I want to change is the way climb and dive is handled, taking the system into various angles of climb and dive with a simple table. To get to those angles requires using the turn rate table, but the details haven't been worked out.
Recently I've been writing for Final Sword Productions and have been asked to look at their Battleskies: Dragons game (which uses many of the play aids of BoP, but is considerably simpler) with an eye towards a possible WW1 crossover (Spads versus Dragons!), but the engine could also lend itself to a MiG KiLLERS remake as well.
Thanks for your continuing interest, Andy. |
| Andy Doty | 27 Nov 2016 6:40 p.m. PST |
CMDR,
Thanks. I realized when I was brushing my teeth, that it was Jet Sortie that didn't have the MiG-17!
I write for Admiralty Trilogy Group (Ever heard of Harpoon).
My group plays CY6 JA, but I remember there being a lot more to MK. If you need help with MiG Killers, I have a group here that I think would like to play test for you (One is an ex-F4 driver).
I know I want to! Respectfully,
Andy Doty |
| pseudopod52 | 02 Dec 2016 3:37 p.m. PST |
Hi Michael,
Glad to know you are updating Mig Killers. I have modified your rules to allow turns at 30 deg increments. Also keep track of pitch attitude and using the turn rate table to pitch from say 0 to 60 deg (I.e. Turning in the vertical plane).
Hope to see your updated version. MK is one of the better air to air games out there. |
| cmdrpowers | 05 Dec 2016 8:33 a.m. PST |
I would be very interested in seeing how you implemented these changes. I've done something similar, but I'm always willing to see a new way. My email is eagle707@bellsouth.net. If you can send me your changes, I would greatly appreciate it. I will not incorporate your changes in MK without further discussion. I have no intention of stealing your concepts. Scotty |
| pseudopod52 | 06 Dec 2016 5:55 a.m. PST |
Scotty,
I'll send you some of my changes to MK. If you find something useful, feel free to use them.
BTW, I'm playing the game using 1:700 miniatures on a hex map. Joe |
| cmdrpowers | 06 Dec 2016 9:05 a.m. PST |
I use the same! For larger more colorful games, I use Furuta and Micromachines. |
| pseudopod52 | 06 Dec 2016 9:27 a.m. PST |
I encapsulate these mini's in a clear plastic sphere resting on a pedestal that would allow representation of any flight attitude.
Still mulling over a play aid to keep track of all the fight data, a la SPI's Air War and AH's Flight Leader. |
| cmdrpowers | 08 Dec 2016 10:08 a.m. PST |
I think I need to see a picture of that. I either use the tilt blocks from Birds of Prey or the telescoping rods with rare earth magnets on adjustable clamps. |
| pseudopod52 | 08 Dec 2016 12:24 p.m. PST |
I don't know how to link images to this message board. I have posted these 'orb mini's' to Birds of Preys group on Yahoo.
BTW did you receive PM on some of my experimental rules? |
| cmdrpowers | 09 Dec 2016 3:59 p.m. PST |
Oh yes! I just need some time to absorb them and try them out. |
