""Butternut" -- Your Best Guesses" Topic

Yes, I know that there is no one right "butternut" color. What I want is for you to pick three colors that YOU would be happy to have as "butternut" on your tabletop Rebs.

You'll want to scroll down to the bottom half of these color charts, then put your cursor on the blocks that you like and record the hex color. Please limit your choices to three:

link

Also don't be swayed by the colors that others pick. Pick what YOU would use.

-- Jeff

BB9900
BBAA00
BB9911
BBAA11

I've got a fairly good eye for colors, but staring at that chart and looking for a good tan makes my eyes hurt.

DD66 with highlight of DD99

I use Ceramcoat Autumn Brown highlighted by Golden Brown.

I ordered Stone Mountain's Dark and Light Butternut and they look great to me. I would always rather somebody else make the call on it and I get to just ride along by buying the appropriately named bottles. Works sometimes, sometimes not so much…

wrgmr1,

The color blocks are six digits long . . . left side / top / right side . . . so your DD66 and DD99 "do not compute" (although I have both Ceramcoat paints).

-- Jeff

tried this w/ Prussian Artillery carrage color, no takers. my guess is many are correct, maybe no two exactly same with weathering, age, die colors

Note, the miniature's scale, undercoat and wash colors and the lighting of both the painting table and the play table also need to be added to the equation. I would assume actual butternut coats have slightly different color based on the fabric used. So, nobody could answer the question exactly.

Didn't we just do this topic?

TMP link

No.

That was "why", this is "what".

Okay……. here's a nice pic to consider. Some folks would refer to this as "butternut" or maybe "tan" or "khaki".

In fact, it is natural grey wool, undyed. It is a wool jeans material with natural grey wool and undyed cotton, woven together. This is also one of the shades that garments dyed with natural dyes, such as logwood will fade to with exposure. Top image is the entire garment. Next image is a close up where you can see the two materials woven together.

HI Jeff,

Sorry DD6600 and DD9900.

Cheers,
Thomas

Thank you, Thomas.

-- Jeff

Very nice. Kinda grey with a brown cast.

Tim, thats EXACTLY the color of my Richmond Depot. I have no black piping though. BTW, who made it??

Bob

Bob

Jim Warehime made the jacket. It was purchased through S&S Sutler in Gettysburg, and belongs to Brent Conner, from Maryland, from whom I shamelessly stole the pics on the Authentic Campaigner board.

I too am quite jealous. I'm ordering a new coat from Richmond Depot this winter for my surgeon's impression. they make stunningly nice CS officer's sack coats.

Richmond Depot tended to be a brownish grey. For butternut I used a wide variety of light browns and tans. I may have used six or more shades.

Last Hussar:

That topic may have started out as why but it became what and why very quickly.

TMP link

Rallynow,

I don't know if I posted this before, but here's some light reading for your perusal.

link

FWIW, the assignation of specific shades of "grey" to specific depots and manufactories is fraught with peril and should be entered into with very light steps, if at all.

V/R

Foundry just released a series of ACW paints. I haven't gotten them yet to comment on how they look on figures but they are available.
Larry

If you are trying to paint Confederates in butternut, isn't uniformity something you should run like heck from?

Cheers,

The Bandit

May I suggest what I use; a light grey with a brown ink wash. Looks good and gives the correct impression. In fact the way I paint my rebs is varying shades of grey, with the brown ink wash. I don't always paint the jackets and trousers the same shade of grey (28mm).
Here is a photo of a small group of Perry plastics that I painted just using a grey primer and the brown ink. You tell it is not a complete unit, as I always paint one guy with red socks.

997722
886611
AA8833

I tend to vary it quite a bit as my understanding is that a lot of those garments used different dyes which would after sun fading and washing vary pretty widely.

I use tans varying from a light beige to a medium brown. I reckon that the combination of varying manufacture and bleaching by the sun makes almost any lighter brown reasonable.

I do try to keep away from colors I use for horses, blankets, hair, and so forth, just to maintain some contrast.

The color of undyed linen, wool, or linsey-woolsey.

I don't like ANY of the hexcode colors.

AICUSV:

Very nice work. I like the plastics a lot, and plan to use them along with Perry's metals and Sash & Saber's metals for the next big project.

I have just been using Citadel's Tausept Ochre which looks pretty good but any Yellow Ochre might be passable.

A sort of brown colour varying in shade..As it was a vegetable dye each batch would be slightly different--Add in sunbleaching/rain/snow while on campaign the variety is endless!

Hard to tell different computers show different hues. I was thinking BB88, AA88 or BB77 upper ranges. I am on a laptop so my colours could be off.

VR
James Mattes

Butter
and
Nut.

Thanks TK – They appear to fit well with my collection of Old Glory figures. Took about an hour to paint them using the primer and ink method. Guess now I'll have to purchase a couple more boxes so I can complete the unit.
The only I didn't like was, although there are a lot of figures in a box, you get enough to do about 4 half units. So you need to purchase at least two boxes at a time.

Vallejo Panzer Aces Old Wood – spot on!

Steer clear of the 'butternut'uniforms.The Richmond depot produced uniforms in dark cadet gray in 1861/62.These tended to fade to a light gray with a hint of tan.As early as August 62 many uniforms were made from imported English cloth which tended to be a dark blue/gray.These didn't fade.At Antietam,when the ANV was supposed to be at its worst,looks wise,whole brigades were dressed in new English uniforms.At Gettysburg all Lee's troops were well dressed,having received new uniforms in May and June,many of them made of English cloth,so a Gettysburg scenario would certainly not include much butternut.
For variation in the ranks royal blue or black pants would suffice as these were issued in huge amounts by the Confederate quartermasters.

I remember seeing one Union soldier refer to the Confederates as wearing "yellowish suits."

The troops in the Army of Tennessee are said to have worn lighter gray than those in the ANV. At Chickamauga some of Longstreet's men were mistaken for "Yankees" due to their dark blueish gray uniforms.

I read once that Barksdale's brigade received new uniforms just before Gettysburg and appeared dressed all in yellow ochre.

It is a vivid memory reading. I just can't find the reference now.

Barkdale's men received their uniforms from the Richmond depot,as did the bulk of the army.Soldier's memoirs along with surviving jackets known to have been worn at Gettysburg all point to cadet gray.

Thanks thornton. Where did you see this?

Well, Cadet Grey as well as English Army cloth would be the predominate color.

As pointed out above, butternut isn't any specific color or even a shade. It refers to the multi0hues of the Butternut.

A good deal of Southern produced cloth was dyed grey with logwood which could start as anything from a nice medium to a dark grey colour. However, due to the natural fading with exposure to the elements, especially strong sunlight, those colours, within a few week's time would fade to anything from a drab to a tannish colour, with sections inside of pockets, on the inside of the coat and under the collar, etc still retaining most of their original grey colour.

Even within a specific company or unit, jackets, pants and caps would all fade at different rates depending upon a variety of factors. The type of wool used, the material used for the dye, the mordant, the mineral content of the water used, the type of kettle/tub used to dye and size the material (copper, iron, brass, tin) even the amount of lanolin in the wool would affect the "take" of the dye.

There is simply no "one size fits all" colour for "butternut". It's like asking what colour is dirt.

I fully agree with the above.Butternut is more of a genre than an actual set color.Furthermore it is time/theater/umit specific.For example a soldier in Bragg's army in Georgia in 1863,wearing a Mobile or a Columbus jacket,would find it faded very quickly,whereas a member of Lee's army at Gettysburg,wearing a synthetically dyed,English wool jacket,would find it fade resistant.
In units which received clothing issues at different times,there would certainly be a variation in color,but by late 1862/early 63 regiments tended to receive full allocations of clothing in one go,resulting in a more uniform appearance in the ranks.

OK, a tangential question but still relevant:

Apparently "butternut" was the result of fading due to various factors and could be any number of shades from gray to brown. But didn't officers buy their uniforms rather than being issued them? If so, presumably they could afford a better cloth such as English wool. So unlike the rank and file, wouldn't they seldom if ever appear in butternut? Although they might appear in various shades from gray to blue, depending on their preference.

Here is an eyewitness account by a citizen of Carlisle,Pennsylvania,who watched Rodes'infantry division march through on June 27th 1863,en-route to Gettysburg….
"The uniforms while not new were newish;there was no sign of torn coats and badly frayed trousers….Knapsacks and haversack,the whole personal kit,was in order……The officer's uniforms were of a light gray cloth,the garniture a brilliant gold galloon;the private's a dark gray with few martial frills.Further opportunity for inspection of cavalry,infantry,artillery and the transportation service confirmed my first impression of a fit,well fed,well conditioned army."

Again a bit off-topic but there have been several mentions in this thread of the rebs having new uniforms at Gettysburg. Aside from the need to replace worn-out clothing, I suspect Lee et al were aware of the propaganda/intimidation value of having the army look its best for the invasion of the north.

CHuDWah, I suspect you are correct about officers' uniforms.

From early 1863 the bulk of soldiers in the Army of Northern Virginia,both Officers and privates,received clothing made of imported English wool.The Officers had to purchase their uniforms.Initially clad in frock coats many Officers,by 1863,had begun to wear ordinary issue shell jackets with their rank shown sewn on their collars.This helped reduce the massive casualty rates among the Officer ranks.
Before the import of English cloth most Officers had uniforms made up of jeancloth,which tended to fade.

Magenta, Mauve, Chartreuse. Just don't clash.

English cloth is bit of a challenging term; how was it different from Scottish cloth? The Civil war had a drastic effect on the massive cotton industry in Glasgow/Lanark/Paisley etc. but trade to America (North and South) was still very significant and Scotland produced a lot of wool and a fair amount of linen.

The Officers had to purchase their uniforms.Initially clad in frock coats many Officers,by 1863,had begun to wear ordinary issue shell jackets with their rank shown sewn on their collars.This helped reduce the massive casualty rates among the Officer ranks.

What data is that assertion based upon? Was the proportion of offier casualties lower in 1864-65? If so, was that because of their uniform coats being different? Is there evidence that officers clothed in shell jackets or sack coats suffered fewer casualties than those wearing frock coats?

I have a feeling that all of these questions are impossible to answer.

Uglyfatbloke……'English cloth is a bit of a challenging term'……No it's not.Senior Confederate Quartermaster officers contracted with the Hainsworth Mills in Yorkshire to provide dark blue/grey cloth for the Confederate Army.This cloth was the same used to make British Guards overcoats.In numerous surviving QM records the imported fabric is always called 'English cloth'or 'English Kersey wool'.
Later in the war when the Confederacy imported ready made uniforms the company they contracted with was owned by Peter Tait,a Scotsman living in Ireland….so there is a tentative connection with Scotland.

firstvarty1979……Up until mid 1863,in the Eastern theatre,numerous regimental quartermaster returns show company officers purchasing cloth(usually 4 yards)to be sewn into frockcoats privately,(at $25 USD per yard).After the severe losses at Gettysburg there is a 400% rise in officers purchasing 'jackets' or 'roundabouts' from the stocks provided by the Richmond Depot.(priced at $12 USD).I can understand the reasoning in this as you're not going to stand out among the rank and file if you're dressed exactly like a private.This is confirmed by the thousands of surviving Confederate service records which show casualties among regimental officers fell by 40% after Gettysburg,even during the severe fighting of the Overland Campaign in 1864.So it's not impossible to answer,is it?

It's damned hard to argue against your facts since you don't provide your sources, but I think other conclusions can be made, even if they are accurate.

I'm not an expert on Confederate Officer uniform provisioning, but other possible reasons for a dramitic rise in jackets versus frock coats might be the cost, or they may not have been authorized by regulations prior to then.

I don't think comparing Gettysburg, where the Confederates were attacking, which places the officers out front of the troops, to the Overland Campaign, where the Confederates were mostly defending, which places officers among or behind the troops is a valid. I would love to see the source of that information though. Officer casualties may have been so heavy that they simply didn't have as many remaining within the regiments to take casualties the following year. Lots of possibilites.

Even IF there was a result of fewer officer casualties by 40% due soley to them changing their jackets (which I feel is very hard to substantiate), that may not be the actual REASON they changed their uniforms.

As an exercise, find a picture of a line of troops at 100 yards (or more) and try to pick out the officers just based on their jackets. I think you'll find that to be a very hard thing to do. Aiming your rifle in the middle of a battle trying to hit a man at normal engagement distances (~200 yards or more) based on just his coat style just doesn't make sense to me. At very close ranges (less than 50 yards), the hat, weapon, and accoutraments will tell you that a man is an officer, regardless of his coat. Those would be unusual circumstances, however.