"V., Ww., Z... who can breed true?" Topic
25 Posts
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abdul666lw | 24 Aug 2011 4:55 a.m. PST |
Following a recent burst of very interesting threads about nature, biology and abilities of mainly Zombies TMP link TMP link TMP link TMP link TMP link but also Vampires TMP link Werewolves TMP link and ghouls TMP link For the 2 so-called 'Undead' types and the Werewolves the 'normal' pattern is the same: - First a 'patient n°1' is 'transformed' -by a supernatural agency (curse, sorcerous reanimation) if you are Fantasy inclined, by a mutant infection (or drugs for Voodoo zombies) if you prefer the 'realism' of Sci-Fi {but, re the hundreds (thousands?) of people burned at the stake because of ergot sclerotium mixed to grains, a 'natural' phenomenon is easily understood as 'supernatural' by superstitious populations}. - Then, the 'transformation' spreads to victims bitten but not killed outright (I doubt Voodoo zombies are contagious: are not man-eating zombies are a quite recent creation of the movie industry, by confusion with ghouls?). But the question remains: can those 'abnormal' types, at the same time, reproduce by the 'traditional' way? And, if they mate with normal humans, is their peculiarity inherited? (Topic already touched upon for Vampires TMP link ) Curses and parasites can sterilize their object / host, but is it the case here? Otherwise, all those 'being' still have basically human bodies
Regarding vampires there is no conclusive references in the 'seminal' Gothic vampire stories – in the case of Carmilla given her inclinations the question was irrelevant. I'm not familiar enough with the 'Kindred' TV series to know if it features blood families or 'companionships'. Human-vampire hybrids appear in recent movies and video games (Castlevania) but is not the idea quite recent? Anyway they look quite rare. As for werewolves on the other hand, they appear as a whole small town in 'Wolf Lake', and the idea somehow does not 'sound' new. Then I've no reference at hand but also the idea of hereditary lycanthropy as a curse 'in the blood' of a 'human' family (with half of the progenitors purely 'human' each generation) does not 'sounds' new or even recent? Btw, is not such 'hereditary curse' generally limited to males? Would be suggestive as to the way of inheritance. If this difference between V. and Wv is confirmed, it would be tempting to put it together with another one: while Vampires, like Elves, are if not immortal but extremely long-lived, Werewolves don't seem to enjoy the same benefit. (If shocked by the association V. -E. think Melniboneans / Drows as ethical intermediates.) Then long-lived populations are faced with the problem of population control. The answer may be cultural: to give birth would be a granted a rare privilege (not restricted to upper class: privileged need a lot of workers below them). [As a parenthesis -obviously does not apply to Vampires- Elves, Eldars at least, seem to have added a biological control. The main factor limiting population growth is the number of reproductive female; Eldar Guardians, the 'general levy', show far less females than males. This would also explain the androgynous appearance of Elves ("All Elves are faggots!"): almost half of them would be female sexually 'blocked' before puberty, (like ant and bee workers) by the pheromones of 'reproductive' females, as observed among overcrowded mice. Hypothesis supported by the observation that in Elvish populations with a far shorter life expectancy (Dark Elves / Eldars) females are far more in evidence.] As for the rarity of Vampire (& Elf) – Human half-breeds, these haughty 'perennials' can see mating with 'ephemerals' as a form of zoophilia. Besides, the fruit of such union, if 'intermediate', would in the eyes of his long-living parent be sentenced to age fast and die at an obscene young age as if suffering progeria. I'm sure Vampires are ethical -in their own way. . . Coming to Zombies, their 'normal' (¿?) reproductive behavior seems ignored (the baby zombie in 'Brain Dead' was not born as such). Maybe the urge is suppressed by a more burning one (though this -admittely peculiar- kind of zombie, Frankenstein's Creature, was later given a bride of his own 'nature'). But perhaps the life expectancy of female zombies is too short to carry a pregnancy to term?
As for Human-Zombie cross-breeding, is there any credible reference to a woman raped but not 'contaminated' or killed by zombies? Only a mad scientist of the worst type would try the experiment under controlled conditions! . . Ghouls appear quite different, not being 'undead', and more easily 'rationalized' as victims / carriers of some *human* spongiform encephalopathy, re. the 'Kuru' of Papua-New Guinea TMP link Degenerated cannibals with bursts of uncontrolled hyena-like laughter would indeed appear typically 'ghoulish'! Lovecraft 'justified' the albino tunnel-dewelling cannibals of 'The Lurking Fear' TMP link by inbreeding alone:but who knows?
Then the difference between zombies and ghouls becomes blurred with the 'New Model' ghoulish zombies of infectious origin. 'Ghoulification' appears as a benign form of 'zombification': perhaps the original form of the disease before, by integration of material from other microbes H1N1 fashion, the infectious agent became more aggressive (e.g. the variant present in the saliva of the Sumatran rat-monkey)? . . . Please analyze, criticize and discuss and refute! (And I did not even allude to the possibility of cross-breeding, vampire x werewolf e.g., nor to the possibility of cross-immunization between the various types belonging to the infectious 'Matheson' model!)
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religon | 24 Aug 2011 5:28 a.m. PST |
The pharma industry would make a killing on Ziagra. Zed: "Rrrraaa-RRaaa-AAArrr" Doc: "You say you are having performance issues? Impotence can be rectified with simple medication." Zed: "AARrrraaa-aaRRaaa-ArrrAArrr" Doc: "You'll need superglue for that." |
abdul666lw | 24 Aug 2011 5:31 a.m. PST |
LOL! |
Scorpio | 24 Aug 2011 5:39 a.m. PST |
All three are made-up fantasy races, and the 'rules' for them change with the author and intent. Decide what you like for your gaming world and run with it. |
Artilleryman | 24 Aug 2011 6:15 a.m. PST |
Did the Russians use vampires in 1812? I seem to remember reading somewhere
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Jeroen72 | 24 Aug 2011 6:33 a.m. PST |
Zombie babies are brought by zombie storks
Everyone knows that :) |
SwordPriest | 24 Aug 2011 6:39 a.m. PST |
I agree that since they're all fictional, have a field day with whatever you want. Whether they're raised by unnatural magic too dreadful to contemplate without slipping into madness, or result from a viral infection, pick whatever seems most fun to you and go with that! (I prefer the ghastly, inexplicable necromancy idea, because I think it makes them creepier, but that's just an example of personal taste at work.) |
Space Aardvark | 24 Aug 2011 6:41 a.m. PST |
I can't imagine anything that is dead would be able to reproduce, but if your vampires were of a genetic origin (like in Perfect Creature) then sure they could produce ickle vampires. I'm sure it would be the same with Werewolves as they aren't dead, and body fluids would be as infectious as a bite. |
Alex Reed | 24 Aug 2011 7:31 a.m. PST |
This would all depend on if the condition was genetic and if it caused epigenetic changes that were heritable. Our genome can be changed by retroviral agents, or by simple things like emotion at the right time during our development. Zombies would need to have something that would change their DNA, and it would likely only be transmitted via males. Females are born with all of their eggs, and the DNA in their eggs doesn't change. Whereas males DNA is manufactured on an "As needed" basis throughout their life. So, if they had a change in their DNA that was introduced into their sperm, then they could reproduce and transmit the condition (depending upon epigenetic factors). For instance, it might require an exposure to a certain simuli at the right time of life for the Zombie Gene in a child to activate, and if it is not activated at the right time, it could then lie forever dormant in that child. However, that child would then be a genetic carrier (and in this case, if it was a female child, then many of her eggs could carry the gene as well
Or ALL of her eggs if it is female sex-chromosome linked and dominant). And
The definition of "Dead" for the "undead" is really a lie. They are obviously still alive, they just have an altered biology from a normal living person's biology. The concept of "Undead" is liked to Cartesian Dualist ideas (and pre-Cartesian dualism), where the "dead" continue to live because they are motivated by the "Life-Force." Well, there is no such thing as an insubstantial, motivating life-force. And, there is scant evidence for a "Soul," which itself contradicts the laws of physics. Mind you, if you wish to play a game in a universe where Cartesian Dualism is True, then there are all sorts of problems that begin to creep into the mechanics, and you pretty much can just make up whatever you wish at that point, as you are throwing Science out the window (Well, this isn't exactly true. We do have some computer models of simple worlds where we make assumptions about philosophical concepts like dualism and see what sort of world happens to arise). There would need to be some sort of force-carrier for the "Soul" and for the "Life-Force." And, is the "Life Force" different from the "Soul?" Many religious philosophers say yes, and most of the mythology surrounding Vampires also say yes, as Vampires are supposed to be bereft of a "Soul." Now, this would affect physics, as now our minds would be able to affect these "Soul Substances." Of course, this is how "Magic" happens in most fantasy worlds. JRR Tolkien pondered these questions in great depth and tried to insert them into Middle Earth (fairly successfully for what he was working with). Magicians do not so much "Cast Spells" as they "Exert their Will," or "Cast forth their Power." This "power" in Middle Earth, was entwined with that of the physical world, and this is why Elves' bodies did not age. The whole of Arda's "Life Force" sustained their Hroä. If their Fëa was powerful enough, it could cause damage to the body (and thus look like premature aging, that would have to be fought off by the person with their connection to Arda through their Fëa. This would be like a feedback loop. But, if you apply these same sorts of assumptions to "Magical" Zombies and Vampires, then you get a different product as far as their ability to breed, and they would not be able to physically reproduce in the same way that most people did unless that could summon a huge amount of Fëa, to induce life into their Hroä long enough to procreate (or with enough force that it impregnated a woman). For an undead woman (Thurwingethil), the Fëa would be used to give life to her dead womb (Hroä), and then maintain any babies inside that womb while they grew. These children, if her expenditure of Fëa was substantial enough, would be born "living," but "tainted" by her evil and "undeadness." Thus, they would be truly horrific monsters with unknown powers of their own that depended upon the mix of Hroä and Fëa the children got from their parents. Now, in Middle Earth, JRR Tolkien agonized over whether the Valar could breed. It seems that the Maia COULD breed when there was an emotionally compelling reason to do so (Usually a connection of a very powerful emotion). Ungoliantë was probably a sort of Maia, or maybe something entirely different born out of the discord of Melkor at the creation of Arda. But she obviously bred, and produced all manner of creatures, many of whom were not spiders (Reptillian, or "Worms," or grotesque Chimeric mixtures). Strangely, Japanese mythology works pretty much the exact same way, and they use their "force of will" for Yõkai (Japanese Monsters/Bakemono), Inari, and other spirits. The Japanese are VERY big on Dualistic interpretations. So much so that even Physicalist Scientists in Japan are given to continuing to use a Dualist Language in their explanations. In these cases, the Vampire and Zombie would be able to breed, but the offspring would be a product of the "Will" and not the body. So, if a Zombie was REALLY "In Love" with someone, then their child would not be a Zombie, but would be some form of Yõkai that was created via Love, rather than hate. It would still have substantial powers related to its vampire or zombie parent, but it would probably not manifest those as "evil" powers. Many of Japan's Yõkai are creations that are exactly this: Evil Monster falls in love with Gorgeous Japanese Princess, The Evil Monster wills himself into human form in order to consumate the relationship, only to be revealed for what he is at climax. Then, the Japanese Princess will attempt to commit Sekkuku, only to be thwarted by the magical aura of the love-child, and she will die of shame at his birth, and he will then travel the Earth seeking revenge on those who shamed his mother to death. Or, some other equally anime seeming story (Anime are surprisingly loyal to traditional Japanese Storytelling and myth). The basic point being: If you try hard enough, then you will overcome ANY obstacle, including the Gods themselves. I've gone on long enough. |
MacrossMartin | 24 Aug 2011 7:34 a.m. PST |
Gad
this used to be the MINIATURES page, but I digress
Given that we are sailing alarmingly close to necrophilia, I'd be inclined to assume that one must structure the reproductive motivation of each type of supernatural being into the scenario: Vampires and Werewolves still possess intellect and emotive drive, and thus, might desire to reproduce in the way nature and Penthouse intended. I'm inclined towards the World of Darkness (TM) interpretation of both creatures – thus, Vampires cannot sire children naturally, as they are the children of Cain, and their inability is part of God's punishment for their forefather's crime. 'Wolves, on the other hand, are full of the essence of life, nature, and all those Earth-mother conifer-hugging qualities, and can happily pop puppies with anyone. Zombies, on the other hand, are dead; as in REALLY dead. They just don't know it yet. I'd assume your average Zed is not terribly concerned about wether or not he or she is getting any – the primary drive left in their Z-Virus controlled brain is to pass the virus on to a new host by the simplest, most efficient means possible, and only a 14 year-old virgin living in his Mum's spare room would assume that sex is efficient. |
billthecat | 24 Aug 2011 7:42 a.m. PST |
Why does this remind me of a bad 'SouthPark' episode
("
and then, I combine zombie DNA with vampire DNA with dolphin DNA..") |
ComradeCommissar | 24 Aug 2011 7:55 a.m. PST |
and thus, might desire to reproduce in the way nature and Penthouse intended. |
28mmMan | 24 Aug 2011 10:31 a.m. PST |
Take a step back and decide how these types came to be, find the common denominator and I think the question will be easier. Satan? Then yes I would say the traditional process would infect the birthing potential much like having a venereal disease can pass along the goodness. Corporate Virus? Most assuredly. In fact I suspect this option might even allow for F1, F2, and continued mutations beyond the original. Etc. Now that does bring an element of euwe though
in respect to gaming elements I would just stick with the bite transfer
stepping into the hokey pokey aspect seems a bit unnecessary. For a story this aspect could be useful, but I would just stick with "any fluid" contact is enough. |
GarrisonMiniatures | 24 Aug 2011 1:02 p.m. PST |
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vojvoda | 24 Aug 2011 1:12 p.m. PST |
So are those in "I am Legend" Ghouls or Zombies? Do we really know if they are dead or just "infected" sensitive to light, some form of intelligence, able to organize but attack in blind lust regardless of the risk. Which is which? VR James Mattes |
LTC Fraiser | 24 Aug 2011 6:38 p.m. PST |
Ghouls are either Wild Fey or demon-possessed humanoids from somewhere on the Other Side. Hence, a lot of interest in feeding; in breeding, not so much. In the first instance, they have their own 'biology', presently unknown to humankind; in the second, where do demons come from is yet another can of worms but biology would be less important than theology in that case. Zombies are either demon-possessed corpses or 'called-up' by necromancer and re-animated by their own as yet undeparted souls. Neither would be interested in breeding in the traditional way. The urge for blood on the one hand and the infliction of pain and suffering on the other are severely limited by the '5 to 10 day rule': after five to ten days, a re-animated corpse is too badly deteriorated to continue to be re-animated via either necromancy or by demonkind. Weres of any sort, arising as they do from either: (1) a curse; (2) a magical item – e.g. a belt – which permits the Change; (3) use of a spell as a wizard or witch – quite rare because of the difficulty of successive successes in Changing; (4) being bitten and becoming furry involuntarily at the next full moon; are less interested in biological reproduction than are humans but more so than zombies, ghouls or vampires. It is said that there in fact communities of weres who mate and raise their young as do humans. Vampires are highly unlikely to be interested in biological reproduction, as their traits are passed on via creating new vampires who are able to survive the spontaneous resurrection with something resembling a thinking mind. The revenants – those who rise with only a horrible Thirst and little or no reasoning abilities – rarely have much more than 'blood' on view and almost never survive beyond a few weeks without help from a more sentient vampire. That assumes that a wampyr would help a revenant, rather than just kill it out of hand as being bad for the vamp image. |
LTC Fraiser | 24 Aug 2011 6:43 p.m. PST |
Oh, yes: bear in mind that finding answers to some or all of these fascinating questions would require considerable research. Research in the wild, as it were, accompanied by a dangerous amount of contact with and exposure to the creatures being studied. Rather like that chap who lived with the bears on some island in British Columbia or Alaska (apologies; I have forgotten which) who was unsurprisingly eaten by the bears with whom he was interacting, don't you know? Therefore, much of the available information is quite old, difficult to read let alone comprehend, and likely to be incorrect. Just as an example, consider the difficulty of sketching a ghoul whilst attempting to successfully run away from your subject and its pack as they attempt to devour you. It might make 'scientific' observations quite unlikely to produce much science and the evidence and genuine information would ony accumulate slowly and much would be lost as the various creatures – e.g., the vampyr – would destroy what was learnt and written down to protect themselves. So, take my posts with a grain of salt
as it were. |
abdul666lw | 25 Aug 2011 2:11 a.m. PST |
Clearly two main schools of thinking are represented: the Fantasy-inclined and the Sci-Fi ones: their conclusions with regard to the initial question are quite opposite. Then, Pickman's "Ghouls" actually look like ghouls x werewolves hybrids. Crocodile Games 'Ghouls' fit rather well Lovecraft's elliptic description: link
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abdul666lw | 25 Aug 2011 7:47 a.m. PST |
Regarding Vampires and regardless of their 'nature', 'ethics' and 'biology', Sheridan Le Fanu and Bram Stoker (and Jean Rollin! link ) fully agree on at least one point: vampires are totally undistinguishable from humans. Thus the 'special' figurines with tusks and pointed ears proposed by manufacturers are not only unjustified, but actually inappropriate. Any elegant yet impressive, beautiful for females, handsome for men, 'normal' human mini would provide you with your 'vampire in human form'. Meaning btw that one is not limited by the lack of 'vampire minis in period costume': 'generic' Fantasy games such as 'Chaos in Carpathia' can be played in any period you like / already have 'human' minis for (I can't see why such 'adventures' link could not be played with minis in tricornes). Yet for those *really* wanting 'special' bloodsucker figurines for their 'Lace Wars' / 'Lacepunk' TMP link games, some of Foundry *Elves* could be of use (specially for the females?): link = tinyurl.com/3w4kqsz link = tinyurl.com/42gsb42 link = tinyurl.com/3n3c6f5 link = tinyurl.com/3hs9zow link = tinyurl.com/3pcfhyq |
SwordPriest | 25 Aug 2011 8:59 a.m. PST |
Well, I would say that it's more the case that Bram Stoker's, Le Fanu's, and Rollin's vampires are indistinguishable from humans. There is no species "vampire" on our planet, so whatever is made up for a specific vampire is accurate, because they're not real. I mean, if I make up a type of vampire with scaly bodies, large, feathered black wings, and a prehensile hollow tongue that blood is sucked through, that's just as viable for my fictional world as Bram Stoker's indistinguishable vampire is for his. This conversation is a bit strange, IMO, anyway. Or rather, certain posts in it are a bit odd. |
abdul666lw | 25 Aug 2011 9:55 a.m. PST |
This conversation is a bit strange, IMO, anyway. Or rather, certain posts in it are a bit odd. You know, I feel some nitpicking exchanges on the 'Napoleonic' board at least as
odd ("Did the fliers buttons on Napoleon's Mamluks bear the Eagle of the Imperial Guard in 1815?") |
abdul666lw | 25 Aug 2011 12:52 p.m. PST |
Well, I would say that it's more the case that Bram Stoker's, Le Fanu's, and Rollin's vampires are indistinguishable from humans. There is no species "vampire" on our planet, so whatever is made up for a specific vampire is accurate, because they're not real. Players need to agree of the meaning of words they use, thus, I disagree with 'whatever is made up for a specific vampire is accurate'. Specially, all documents about vampires from the 19th C. Gothic stories to 'Twilight' agree on a single point: vampires can pass unnoticed among us (so much more noticeable that, for instance, the movies industry changed the meaning of 'zombie' to a kind of moronic ghoul). Thus this is a 'common requirement' of vampiric characters
and thus miniatures. If you like, vampires can shapechange into bats (or wolves?) and then, one uses 'animal' miniatures. But miniatures of humans with bat wings on the shoulders
well, suggest that the gain an additional pair of limbs in the process. A little too much for me -unless you suppose this to be their true form and that, like centaurs and angels, they come from Barsoom (or its best copy, Kregen)
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infojunky | 25 Aug 2011 1:39 p.m. PST |
All this thread makes me think is; Do I have enough fuel in my flamethrower? |
abdul666lw | 26 Aug 2011 2:35 a.m. PST |
There is no species "vampire" on our planet, so whatever is made up for a specific vampire is accurate, because they're not real. Indeed your gaming group can decide that vampires appear as cute little white rabbits; or even, for that matter, as thrush-sized pink elephants flying by flapping their ears and feeding on flowers nectar like hummingbirds. But keeping calling them 'vampires' would not be very
consensual. |
ScoutII | 26 Aug 2011 5:10 p.m. PST |
Would have to ditto the comment about it being all made up
so choose the concept you like and run with it. Without grabbing my books, I think I have seen fictional works which offer both possibilities for all of the above options (they can breed/they must infect to create more). The only one I am not too sure on is the zombies. This is less about not knowing if I have seen a movie, read a book or otherwise heard a tale about baby zombies
but rather whether or not that baby zombie would be considered a zombie or something more like a ghoul or other undead/not so undead with somewhat higher intelligence. |
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