"Napoleon at War - anyone seen them?" Topic

Ok got the name right this time. So anyone seen/got them yet? I have a set coming but was a bit alarmed when I read there were no lists in the core book. No real issue apart from if the stats you need are missing too Wanted a set to try and entice club members into playing naps but will be hard without easy to make forces (liked lasalles approach but it didn't go down well rules wise at club)

Just out of curiousity, what is wrong with going to a history book, looking at an Order of Battle and coming up with something of your own?

Worried about equal sides? Why? Asymentrical fights were the norm in history. Just design a scenario that justifies the forces involved. Easy.

For course the Rules Lawyers and Tournament Players will hate this, but who wants to deal with people like that anyway?

"Just design a scenario that justifies the forces involved. Easy."

How is that easy?

That's easy like I said. Problem is there appears to be stats missing which are pertinent to the game. Otherwise one could just plonk equal sides down to see how it plays.

However they have promised to PDF some lists for today or tomorrow.

Hi Rich

I noticed these on TGN earlier and it does look interesting

may pick up a setto have a flick through

Mike

My set should be with me by now but good old RM are obviously playtesting them before delivery!
Will let you know what they are like if they arrive.
Rich

hi Rich

that would be good, I've had a read of the turn sequence and it looks like a fun game, I have to admire them for doing a tournament style Napoleonics game though.

Mike

PS maybe do a review on M&M podcast, you know what Neil is like when it comes to new games ;-)

Got my copy now, test game tomorrow. We have it penciled in for M&M in a couple of weeks.
Rules wise they look very good for their aims. Not going to appeal to the 'empire' players I don't think but that's not the point. Looks like a fun, easy to play game with a good feel. Some cool mechanics in there.
Rich

Thanks Rich

well on that recommendation I think I'll pick them up and have a look. have you heard any reviews on the figures? as I'm tempted to see what they are like as well

Cheers

Mike

Hold off til we try them tonight :)

Also will depend on how quick they get lists and campaign books out. Might be like operation squad – good game but no follow up (as we are still waiting for the vehicle rules).

At present without doing a lot oneself there is only really a Brit and French 1812-15 type list.

holding, ;)

Played last night. Will get a review and report onto my blog today if I everfinish my list of chores. I enjoyed it :)

Had three games now. Actually really like them as a game. Takes about 2 hours to play so should be able to do s couple of games a night which is good for a club campaign.
They are not going to be to everyones taste but suite me fine. The play very quickly as the support moves mean a lot of ones army will get moves during the turn. Close range fire figures highly and if the columns manage to get in, melee is quick and bloody.
Lot more subtle than I thought after the first game. Will try and do a review on my blog later.

Rich, you reckon it would work for introducing someone to Napoleonics?

They are definitely aimed at introducing people to Naps, esp those used to 4x6 bring an army, set up and battle in all 2-3 hour type players (FOW, 40K etc.
They are quick to pick up (but subtle in mechanics when you get used to them)easy to play (not much opportunity for rule lawyering)and the flavour comes from the National Characteristics which are fairly different and strong (only Brits and French out at present) which make you use the army in the stereotypical fashion. French columns are strong when they get in but the Brit Line stands a good chance of stopping them with fire power. Cav not over powerful but is very useful for pinning troops and making it harder for them to do 'stuff'.

All in all I am impressed. Caveat here is that the will not appeal to the Nap Geek I suspect but I am pretty sure they were not supposed to …

Closest I can thing to them is Lasalle in terms of making it easy to get into Naps but I think the gameplay is even more straight forward …

Sounds good Rich, looking forward to getting hold of my rulebook now

So what do you think off the book itself? Worthy production for the price tag?

Well we are having to get used to 20-30 quid hard back sets, personally I always think I am paying for the ideas and rules not the wrapping as I know how cheap print can be now a days.

But the rules are very well presented and produced in full colour throughout with loads of diagrams and lots of pictures of games and reenactment (from the Waterloo anniversary I think). 107 pages but a few of these are empty eye candy pages

It IS a core book and they plan to bring out campaign supplements and pdf army lists I believe. At the moment there are only Brit and French Infantry (+support) Division lists but to be honest now the points are online one could fudge most armies.

SO production wise v.price tag … it is certainly no worse than any of the current rules offerings in the 20-30 quid range. Again I see it as paying for the rules, the wrapping is a nice extra. I'm going to play the rules a lot I think so it's worth the price tag. If they were to sit on the shelf and never be played then obviously not.

Sorry that probably didn't help any.

Anymore games, anymore thoughts on the rules?

Yeh few more games … haven't done a blog entry yet as I have been busy doing my Star War rules … I like them though and going to test them out at our club on Tuesday.

Was there ever a blog entry?

I'm one of the "Geeks" you referred to, and an Empire veteran….and I like Napoleon at War A LOT. They might have hit a home run with these rules….and I'm picky.

I have a NaW blog if it is required! :)
link

That is an amazing campaign and blog, by the way…well done!

"Just out of curiousity, what is wrong with going to a history book, looking at an Order of Battle and coming up with something of your own?"

Well for the main thing the makers of the rules would not be able to sell you new set of books and army lists every year.

They do not want you to be actually fighting a battle or scenario that actually happen.

They will probably be like Battlefront and real history and real Order of Battles will get in the way of them making any money off of you.

You are wrong. I've already played several scenarios – that's how I learned the game.

We're playing at Texas Toy Soldier in Dallas, Texas on Sunday, 7/22 at 1:30ish for all those in the Tejas area that would like to see the game, play and/or learn the rules. We've got enough figures for you to play.

Steve Miller
DFW Irregulars

"Well for the main thing the makers of the rules would not be able to sell you new set of books and army lists every year."

You seem to be pretty tortured by these kinds of things :) … not sure why..

We've done many historical scenarios with the historical OOB and they all went pretty well..

It takes some time to plan such scenarios and I enjoy taking the time to do it, but I will be happy to see other historical scenarios done by the authors to see how they look at things.. Just like I like buying the GdB scenario books…

The army lists are well thought around historical organizations.. for example forces from the same corps are either basic or support but forces coming from other corps are in reserve.. in general a nice way to do it.. but of course you don't use those for historical scenarios..

It would be silly for someone to tell me not to run historical scenarios, why would they do that.. but it is almost as silly as your serious concerns about people who enjoy playing pick up games with points and army lists…

Not everyone has to enjoy the hobby according to your designs..

"Well for the main thing the makers of the rules would not be able to sell you new set of books and army lists every year"
Dave Brown seems to do reasonably well selling scenario books based on historical battles and OOB.

Sam also included some nice historical scenarios in Lasalle..

So all in all your statements seem to be very unreasonable.. is almost as if it bothered you that a company would release a set of rules and a set of minis… I see that as a good thing, the more minis options and more rules options we have the better…

"They will probably be like Battlefront and real history and real Order of Battles will get in the way of them making any money off of you."

very constructive approach :) !

BTW: the only way a company can "make money off of me" is by making good products, or I should say products that appeal to me.. I don't need your "consumer protection" efforts.. thanks :)

Francisco

Consider these guys have bothered to create list of Austrians and Russians and they do not sell a single miniature of those armies yet. But in the end they will become as GW or BF so it is better to keep alert. :)

Get 'em, Francisco! I've never seen you like this….

hahahaha…. I get all crazy !!!

Just like when going against that line of "amazons" on the ridge or those annoying green jackets in the sandpit !!!

Or those freakin' infantry lines facing cavalry….

ok ok, no need to pick on your fellow division commander, I gave you a hand with La Haie Sainte.. in defense of my infantry they were caught by surprise !!! d'Erlon's guys were also caught in line and they suffered the same fate :( … at least the grand battery took care of thos guys with the grey horses…

"So all in all your statements seem to be very unreasonable.. is almost as if it bothered you that a company would release a set of rules and a set of minis… I see that as a good thing, the more minis options and more rules options we have the better…"

I bet the same could have been said of Battlefront and their Flames of War a few years ago.

Then last week they forgot that there was other World War II 15mm Miniature manufactors out there who for the most part were there long before they ever came along.

Then they got to be the big boy on the block and they tried to make that if you wanted to partake in one of their tournaments you could only if you did not have any of those other manufactures miniatures in your army.

Well that did not end well for them but they still require that over 50% of your miniatures be THEIRS for your army.

NaW has taken quite a few things from FoW.

Bucket of Dice
Equal side forces (I would really like to know what Napoleonic battle ever was equal)
UGO-IGO

I can already see the standard French tournament army max out Old Guard, Mostly Elites and very few regular or conscripts.

Well I do not like FoW because while it may use World War II miniatures it does not play like a World War II game.

As for NaW well what if they do become the big boy on the block and they come out and state you can't use your AB, Old Glory, Battle Honours, Minifigs etc… miniatures.

Which are the majority of the Miniatures that Napoleonic gamers own.

They are following the same business plan as GW & Battlefront.

Create a rule system to sell their miniatures and every year come out with either a new version of the rules or updated Codex or Army Lists that replace the current books.

If you are going to follow the Dark Empire and Battlefront business plans will it means that the customers for NaW should expect nearly the same.

Oh and as it is now GW gets very little money from me. I refuse to buy any thing that is Finecast Resin, I do not buy miniatures from them but head to Ebay instead.

Battlefront gets none.

As of right now for NaW it is none as well.

What time is it? Time to destroy Mithmee….

"I bet the same could have been said of Battlefront and their Flames of War a few years ago."

WE SHOULD BE SO LUCKY to have Napoleonic wargaming grow as much as Flames of War and be so popular.

"NaW has taken quite a few things from FoW."

Let's play "Has Mithmee played Napoleon at War?"….

"Bucket of Dice" – Nope. A single 'cube' of dice is enough for BOTH SIDES.

"Equal side forces (I would really like to know what Napoleonic battle ever was equal)" Yes, you can balance forces by points value. I'll let our scholars tell you about even fights…

"UGO-IGO" Bzzzt, another strike! The opposing player has stuff to do during his opponent's turn. If you had played the game, you'd know this.

"I can already see the standard French tournament army max out Old Guard, Mostly Elites and very few regular or conscripts."

Please do! My mostly-conscript French infantry division does well. I think Allied armies would love to face an army you described…

"Well I do not like FoW because while it may use World War II miniatures it does not play like a World War II game."

How's that? Other than putting the artillery on the table, it plays very much like a WWII battle.

"As for NaW well what if they do become the big boy on the block and they come out and state you can't use your AB, Old Glory, Battle Honours, Minifigs etc… miniatures."

Then we'd tell them the same thing we told Battlefront.

"Which are the majority of the Miniatures that Napoleonic gamers own."

And oddly enough, so many Napoleon at War players are talking about how they have been pulling those figures from the dark recesses of their closets, finally using them again for the first time in DECADES.

"They are following the same business plan as GW & Battlefront."

I'd like to hear you explain how that's a BAD THING….

"Create a rule system to sell their miniatures and every year come out with either a new version of the rules or updated Codex or Army Lists that replace the current books."

Sweet! Count me in!

"If you are going to follow the Dark Empire and Battlefront business plans will it means that the customers for NaW should expect nearly the same."

If only they were more than a couple of guys in Spain…I'm would be thrilled if they did this.

"Oh and as it is now GW gets very little money from me. I refuse to buy any thing that is Finecast Resin, I do not buy miniatures from them but head to Ebay instead."

Me neither. But they never showed up at my door to confiscate my miniatures, so I still use the ones I have.

"Battlefront gets none."

Because you don't like the game. Nobody put a gun to your head to force you to play it.

"As of right now for NaW it is none as well."

Thanks for starting a thread about it, too! You're contributions of ….
- Not playing the game, and
- Not buying the products…
…was insightful and contributed greatly to the discussion.

Whew, that felt good. Now everyone needs to step back from the smoking crater to allow the radiation to dissipate.

Mithmee,
Your post contains far too many assumptions and misapprehensions to be taken seriously. I can only assume that you have never played the rules and your predictions as to what NaW will do in the future are based on your own assumptions.

Also, why shouldn't a company that makes models require people to use them in their competitions? Nobody is forced to take part in their competitions and nobody is prevented from using other manufacturers' models in friendly play or other competitions.

I'm amazed he didn't mention "Saving Throws! OMG! The HORROR"

This post is very funny because there has not been celebrated any official NaW tournament yet.
As I noticed before NaW people have created lists for Russians and for Austrians and they do not sell those miniatures yet. A very unGWship behaviour.

"Bucket of Dice"
I once suggested them using coins (toss up) but they just stared me and asked me to shut up.
"Equal side forces"
That silly game called chess shares the same problem. Point system is for competitive games I personally prefer unbalanced campaign battles.
"UGO-IGO"
Again like chess, risk, WH, Impetus, Armati, FOG,FOW…
Actually you can return fire and perform a cavalry reaction charge in your opponent's turn. Not too much but remember it is his turn not yours…

"I can already see the standard French tournament army max out Old Guard, Mostly Elites and very few regular or conscripts."
We all comitted that mistake first time we play. The more you play more you like conscript, landwehr and all that scum. They all needed cannon fodder in Napoleonic wars. If you prefer professional armies go to SYW.

I think you should give a try to this game, only when you play you discover the hidden tresaures beneath the rules. Please, play a game and tell us your experience!

"Your post contains far too many assumptions and misapprehensions to be taken seriously. I can only assume that you have never played the rules and your predictions as to what NaW will do in the future are based on your own assumptions."

You are right I have not and will probably never will. But you can still learn quite a bit from reading other individuals reviews and battle reports.

"How's that? Other than putting the artillery on the table, it plays very much like a WWII battle."

Okay I have seen FoW played many times and not once in all of those games did it ever look like a World War II game or give the feel of a World War II game.

What I have seen was tanks line out in a nice bumper to bumper formation in a nice neat line.

I have seen M-10 Tank Destroyers suddenly appearing out of no were in a wide open field.

Oh and lots of d6's rolling.

"I'd like to hear you explain how that's a BAD THING…."

Gee, and I bet GW just just loved by everyone who has played their games and have been screwed by them.

Plus Battlefront got some great support from their fans when they made their announcement last week.

If you think that having to redo your army every single time a new Codex or Army List comes out is a good thing. Well then more power to you.

"WE SHOULD BE SO LUCKY to have Napoleonic wargaming grow as much as Flames of War and be so popular."

and maybe just as hated?

Not everyone loves FoW and the game has only been around since 2002. They got a big boost from individuals who quit Warhammer WFB & Warhammer 40K.

Now they are the big boy on the block for World War II.

Just last week they tried and failed to force only their Miniatures could be use. End result was huge backlash but they are still holding their ground at 51%. They will not stop at trying to get 100%.

"Thanks for starting a thread about it, too! You're contributions of ….
- Not playing the game, and
- Not buying the products…
…was insightful and contributed greatly to the discussion."

You are welcome.

But if in ten years and NaW is the big boy on the block and they have grown. Do not be surprise if it trys and flex it muscles.

Oh plus it shoudl be wonderful when you have French vs French or British vs British fighting it out for 1st place in a Tournament, because it will happen.

Yup, that surely is Napoleonic Warfare.

NOT

"You are right I have not and will probably never will" …

good for you.. quick question, why do you care what we play ?

"But you can still learn quite a bit from reading other individuals reviews and battle reports."

no you can't… but it is irrelevant.. your insights based on "reading" have no value at all…

"Not everyone loves FoW and the game has only been around since 2002"

Is there a point in this statement?

"Now they are the big boy on the block for World War II"

There are new WWII rules coming up every day, just a few, Victory Decision, Kampfgruppe Normandy, Battlegroup Kursk, Bolt Action, Disposable heroes.. There are new lines of WWII minis in 15s, 20s, 28s.. coming out all the time..

Who cares.. if BF manages to have a good business good for them… You know what, good for GW too. I don't play WH or 40K, I played WH back when it was 3rd edition .. do you know what I did when they come up with new rules , new armies new codex, etc? Nothing, I still have my armies, my 3rd edition and my Army list.. Here is the wonderful thing about markets.. if you don't want something you don't buy it !!! ( wow )
People that play WH or 40K have their right to have fun however they want…

"Just last week they tried and failed to force only their Miniatures could be use. End result was huge backlash but they are still holding their ground at 51%. They will not stop at trying to get 100%."
An issue between them and people wanting to participate in their tournaments.. it does not affect non tournament players at all… I thought you were not a tournament player so this doesn't affect you.. again.. why do you care?

"But if in ten years and NaW is the big boy on the block and they have grown. Do not be surprise if it trys and flex it muscles."

Do you read what you type ? you cannot be serious :)

"Oh plus it shoudl be wonderful when you have French vs French or British vs British fighting it out for 1st place in a Tournament, because it will happen."

How does it affect you what other people do ? I still don't understand it..

"Yup, that surely is Napoleonic Warfare.
NOT"

Is this you trying to "flex your muscles" ? So far I have seen more instructions about how napoleonic wargames "should be played" from you than from MaW

from your earlier post:
"Equal side forces (I would really like to know what Napoleonic battle ever was equal)"

Why are you still trying this failed argument?

What I don't understand is what is your point… are you really trying to convince people not to play a game that you have never played just because you think it is not "napoleonic" in your view or because you think that in 10 years they might be a big company and ask people not to use other minis in their tournaments ( this coming from a non-tournament player )…

I don't think people need your protection from these "evil empires"…

Maybe you should go after some other big endeavour Don Quijote, this one is not going very far…

cheers
Francisco

"Why are you still trying this failed argument?"

Well for one you have not answer my question that I put forth earlier.

Name me one battle during the Napoleonic war that had anything even near equal forces.

"why do you care what we play"

Why do care that I don't and never will?

Plus you can gain a lot of information by just reading.

"I thought you were not a tournament player so this doesn't affect you.. again.. why do you care?"

Now where did you get that. I stated that I am not a FoW player or a NaW player.

I never said I was not a Tournament player.

"are you really trying to convince people not to play a game"

Again were did I state that?

What I made were my opinions I never said anyone should not be playing the game.

What I have stated here and in other threads my reasons why I do not like it.

Now If you can find anything about me saying no one should play it I will really be surprise because I know I have stated no such thing.

"Maybe you should go after some other big endeavour Don Quijote, this one is not going very far…"

Depends on how you want to view it.

You're making me like these rules even more!

"Well for one you have not answer my question that I put forth earlier"

The point was answered before, if you didn't get it then you won't get it now.
There is no way to present a battle in history with equal point values because points are a wargmae element, one would think that you would see the failure in your logic.. There are many battles in history where given the forces facing each other either side could have won… Not hard to understand…

We can start this all over again but we will get nowhere. The fact is that when a set of rules includes points you can use them or ignore them, depends on what game you have in mind.

Again the issue here is with you somehow being upset about the games other people chose to play.

But the most interesting thing about your last post is that you abandoned any line of reasoning and decided to embark in some kind of circular logic…

Let me try to get a clear picture of your angle,

Do you enjoy tournament wargaming ?

Are you hoping for a set of napoleonic rules that will allow you to participate in tournaments ?

If you are interested in napoleonic tournaments how does that work with your rejection of points in wargames ?

If you are not interested in napoleonic tournaments how does it affect you any conditions established by any tournament organizer ?

If you are not affected by any conditions established by a tournament organizer, what do you care what lists, rules codex or miniatures are realeased by the organizer of such tournament ?

In summary of all previous questions, what is the point that you are trying to get across?

On a previous conversation about NaW you stated why you didn't like the rules. I understood that very clearly, I don't need to agree with you because we each have our taste in rules. Of course your comments provide little value as a review since you have not even read the rules ( we went through a similar excercise some time ago with another set or napleonic rules :) )…

What is particularly curious to me is how there are so many players that take as their own personal objective to go an put down a particular set of rules :) It happened with Lasalle, it is happening with Blank Powder and so and so with many others.. Of course it is particularly strange when these people haven't even tried the rules but that is not relevant because even if I tried a set of rules and I don't like it it would feel strange to me to constantly try to complain about them…

In this particular case you decided to go the path of attacking the authors of the rules because according to you they don't want napoleonic players to do historical wargaming since that would interfere with their business plans..
The problem with this is that unlike fantasy where you can come up with a fantasy model and try to encourage people to buy it historical wargamers already have that encouragement.. we natuarally ask for more minis and more period coverage… we don't buy Old Guard minis because a new book came out.. we buy them because we want to play Placenoit.. I don't buy highlanders because someone gave them a +1 in a codex, I buy them cause I'm building Picton's division because I can fit it in many historical scenarios during the 100 days..

So, I love that AB , CGM , Warmodelling and so many others make minis … I love that a new company jumped in.. even with all of them we still end up making conversions because there is always some uniform that nobody makes !!!

All of your concerns about the future of NaW are only a concern if you want to engage in the tournament circuit. I understand the people that were BF tournament players being upset about suddenly not being able to use their armies, but people using FOW for local pick up games don't care about that…

As far as I'm concerned,every time a new napoelonic line of minis comes out I'm happy.. every time a new set of rules comes out , I'm happy.. every time a new campaign or scenario book comes out , I'm happy… If when I get one of those products I end up not liking it then there is always eBay and even then I might keep it just for the quality of the product…

If NaW,or Lasalle orany other would release 1.x versions every year.. I would still be happy.. I could simply look at each update and see if the game is improved or not..

Anyways… I hope you will see the points that I'm making.. In the extreme case that you are worried that NaW might take over napoleonic gaming, I think you can rest easy.. Your own example of BF paints a clear picture, no matter how big BF might get , there is always room for a new WWII set or new line of minis… And I think there is no doubt that in Napoleonics that is even more unlikely.

cheers
Francisco

This post is like the epic post of that dude who tried to play LASALLE with just the Quick Reference Sheet. But this is a more developed thread. To make a critic without reading the book and blaming against the hypothetical sales politic in ten years of the company!
Please play a game a test it. The game is more napoleonic than the mere reading of rules may suggest.

Right, Juan…(that was a great thread).

The thing that hooked me about Napoleon at War was the SUBTLETIES of the game…you will not pick up on them when reading the rules. Play a few games and the light goes on.

There's no point in arguing with people like Mithmee.

Mithmee,

The reason why the balanced forces argument is a false one is that nobody is forcing anyone to play with balanced forces using these rules. If people want to use balanced foces, that is fine as it is their choice to do so or not do so.

I agree with your views about how many FoW games seem to end up with tank parking lots. However, I will defend the right of BF (and the NaW guys if it ever comes to that) to require people playing in their competitions to use their models only. If they tried to say that you could only use their models to play their games in any situation, I would firstly laugh at them and then watch with amusement as they were torn apart by the online wargaming community. However, it will not come to that as they are not that stupid.

I have played a few games of NaW, not with balanced forces, and they work very well.

You can do a 'tank parking lot' with other rules. That's not Flames of War's fault…it's the players fault.

When I see it, I ridicule the player mercilessly until he puts some space between the vehicles.

Clay, I agree to an extent. It partly comes about because of poor rules so it is at least partly FoW's fault.

Our homebrew rules have a "near miss" rule. If another vehicle is within a certain distance (depends on the scale – we use both 12mm and 20mm) of one that is missed by a firer, it stands a chance of being hit. It tends to encourage people to spread their vehicles out.

mithmee, you've convinced me to try out these rules now. Hah!

"When I see it, I ridicule the player mercilessly until he puts some space between the vehicles."
I agree with you. They do not deserve anything else!
The joke is in middle of the game with some SP Sextons.
sites.google.com/site/fownormandia/dia-d/7-sector-britanico

Wargamers like to cram figures together because they get a perceived advantage and feel it is more important to win than relax and have fun.

One of the subtle things about Napoleon at War is the severe disadvantage this gives a player who crams infantry battalions side by side like a pike phalanx.

The rules do not specifically say you can't do it. Nor are there any rules that directly punish you or address the tactic in any way. However, if you do it, you've ruined your ability to maneuver. There is NO advantage in combat, and units can only charge one at a time.

The game rewards players who adopt historical deployments of battalions, with space between them and reserve units in a second wave. I won't go over it here, but when I see a player stuff his battlions together like that…I know that I'll beat his ass sideways.