Sgt Slag | 06 Jul 2011 1:59 p.m. PST |
When I read my copy of 1st Ed. AD&D Monster Manual, it is rather obvious that Gygax was a wargamer. It seems as though 2nd Ed. BS would have been right up Gygax's alley, so to speak. Anybody ever hear him comment on 2nd Ed. BS? It never got much support from TSR, but it was, and still is, IMO, a good game. Cheers! |
Henrix | 06 Jul 2011 2:55 p.m. PST |
I don't think he looked at 2d ed Battlesystem. He was well out of TSR by then, and didn't comment on what they did much. He didn't have many kind words to say about AD&D2, but that was probably more because he was angry at TSR. I hardly think he had anything much to do with first ed Battlesystem either. I can't recall when it came out, nor exactly when he left/was manoeuvred out. |
Parzival | 06 Jul 2011 3:46 p.m. PST |
According to Wikipedia, 1st Ed. Battlesystem was published in 1985. Gygax is not listed as being one of the authors. link Also according to Wikipedia, Gygax left the company at the end of 1985: link and wasn't actually removed from a real leadership role until October of that year. So while he was around for the development and publication of BS1, it's hard to know what he thought of it or how much he had to do with its creation. The wiki bio also indicates he had not been heavily involved in the gaming aspect of the company at the time, concentrating more on such things as the D&D cartoon show and forays into publishing fiction. |
Klebert L Hall | 07 Jul 2011 4:35 a.m. PST |
OTOH, why care what he though? His rules have not exactly gone down in history because they were great rules, but more because they came to market quite early, and were thus fairly groundbreaking. -Kle. |
20thmaine | 07 Jul 2011 5:09 a.m. PST |
all the early D&Ds were great, and AD&D – the first 3 hardback books – were a triumph. In terms of the new rules editions – everything since has been nothing but money making tinkering. AD&D (to me) is a bit like Cluedo and Monopoly – they were perfected and didn't need constant rules & board revisions until someone thought up the money making possibilites of "special editions" to tie into films etc. |
Sgt Slag | 07 Jul 2011 5:58 a.m. PST |
Klebert, I am interested in his thoughts because he was a wargamer/rules writer from the early days of the hobby. I agree, his miniatures rules were not the greatest, but they were among the early, successful sets, and he was, like it or not, an icon of that age of gaming. I never revered the man, but I always thought it would be fun to game with him, to see what his style was like. I agree, 20thmaine, AD&D was excellent. When 2nd Ed. came out, I was very hesitant, as I had already seen T$R's money machine in full swing, with 10+ hardback rulebooks! I told my players that I had not even begun to exhaust the possibilities presented by the 1st Ed. rules. Then I bought, and read, the 2nd Ed. PHB, which codified many of the tweaks I was experimenting with, and I was hooked. I never bothered checking into the later editions, as 2nd suits me quite well, even today, some 21 years later (2nd Ed. PHB came out in 1989?). Cheers! |
Who asked this joker | 07 Jul 2011 7:16 a.m. PST |
I agree with everything that 20thmaine said. As for Gygax' rules being bad? I still like and plan on playing Chainmail again. I'll do some mods but at its core, what a great game! Tractics is a bit heavy but a fine game in itself. Enjoyed many games of Tractics in my youth. As for actual DnD games, I still think that the white box edition is all you need. But if you have to go "modern" AD&D 1st edition works like a charm! |
Henrix | 07 Jul 2011 7:58 a.m. PST |
Parzival, Gary was not much active at the game end of TSR even before he left – he was busy trying to get Hollywood to make a D&D movie, among other things. He said he was busy keeping away from the Blumes, for his own sanity's sake. |
Rudysnelson | 07 Jul 2011 9:44 a.m. PST |
I enjoyed several of his systems that came out before AD&D. The Tricolor, Royalist and Roundheads and the ACW system would still be popular today. They used the bucket of dice fast play mechanic which is favored by the young gamer. So I would not dismiss him as a game designer. |
Farstar | 07 Jul 2011 9:53 a.m. PST |
When 2nd Ed. came out, I was very hesitant, as I had already seen T$R's money machine in full swing, with 10+ hardback rulebooks! Yes, spread out over almost ten years. How dare they! |
Ironwolf | 07 Jul 2011 10:56 a.m. PST |
Ran into him several years ago at a game con in Rockford, IL. He was with his daughter and grandson promoting fiction books he had done. Between promoting the books, him and his grandson were gaming. Very nice person and a missed gamer. |
SonofThor | 19 Jul 2011 8:43 a.m. PST |
Gygax had planned a 2nd edition for D&D. If he hadn't been forced out of TSR he would've penned it. Although I think it would've gone in a different direction. |
Sgt Slag | 20 Jul 2011 10:04 a.m. PST |
I remember listening to David "Zeb" Cook, at a Q&A session, Gen Con 1992, discussing 2nd Ed. AD&D. He stated that he wanted to alter it at its core, for the mechanics, but TSR restricted him in what changes he could make. Not sure it he penned 3.0/3.5, or had any input into 4.0. It would have been interesting to see how E. G. Gygax would have altered the system: would he have re-written the core mechanics, or just massaged things beyond what he had done up to that point? We will never know, but that is an interesting bit of information. Cheers! |
SonofThor | 21 Jul 2011 11:51 a.m. PST |
Adventures Dark And Deep adventuresdarkanddeep.com is a project that Greyhawk Grognard greyhawkgrognard.blogspot.com has been working on for a while. It's kind of a clone of what E.G.G. was going to do with 2nd Ed. had he finished it. It's based on a lot of notes and interviews that Gygax left. |
SwordPriest | 25 Aug 2011 11:47 a.m. PST |
Well, in my opinion, Mr. Gygax's rules were hellishly poor, and I'm glad that they've been consigned to the dustbin of history. The only debt the hobby owes him is getting it started -- and I rather wonder how much of that was self-promotion on his part, since it seems like quite a few others had a major role to play, too. In short, I don't particularly like Mr. Gygax or his rules. His disliking something would probably be a recommendation for it from my perspective. |
Sgt Slag | 11 Sep 2011 1:53 p.m. PST |
What is interesting, is that in the "Introduction", for 1st Ed. AD&D DMG, Gygax tells the reader that the printed rules are "guidelines" which the DM, and players, should not allow to ruin their fun. Later, in Dragon Magazine articles, Gygax took the 'my way, or the higheay' approach. Very insulting, but it reflected TSR's marketing approach, where they attempted to control AD&D to a ridiculous degree. Oh, well, it's all ancient history now. Cheers! |
Mike at Work 2 | 14 Sep 2011 5:52 p.m. PST |
re-read the introduction to the DMG, the AD&D rules were meant to be a "common standard" for convention play. So that everyone one playing at that level was playing by the standard rules, and not a home ruled version. each group had their house rules, even if it was jsut rules they didn't enforce. |