"Which Prussian Landwehr Regiments wore a Grey Litewka" Topic

I've checked the French uniform website for the 1815 campaign, which seems very accurate in terms of uniforms.
The ones I've checked are all are in Prussian blue, none are in grey.

link

Does anyone have any information regarding this? The Calpe website has a number of Greyish painted units.

It's a very complex question, apparently, and requires several books to answer. Your question is not specific enough to answer on TMP. Instead, I suggest Google…

That's the answer I got when I asked related question: TMP link

All Prussians wore gray GREATCOATS.

Are you sure you mean a "litewka" (which is a type of overcoat) rather than just a normal jacket? I suppose there might have been units with grey litewkas in 1813 when there were extreme shortages of uniforms, but there were certainly units – mainly Reserve Infantry Regiments – which had short, grey tunics.

Bear in mind that the Calpe site is for Prussian troops from 1813-1815, the French site is just for the Waterloo campaign – by that time supply etc would have been better and uniforms closer to the official regulations, than at the start of the 1813-14 campaigns.

Maximus,

The Litewka is a long jacket issued to the Landwehr.
I suspect you are correct in the difference between the French uniform website and Calpe's examples. Thanks.

Yes, I was trying to give it a description that would leave no ambiguity and distinguish it from a normal-length coat issued to troops of the period – apologies if I didn't credit you with as much knowledge as you actually have.

Litewka is Polish for "Lithuanian".

Hi Wrgmr1 try this link has a list of Prussian Troops Uniforms and alot of other things I use it for my Prussian that I am painting.

link

none

Landwehr was characterized by wearing whatever they laid their hands on. So if you paint a unit with an assortment of grey, brown, blue and khaki greatcoats you will be close to reality.

Kellerman, that seems the most logical especially in the 1813 period. It's what I've read in a couple of places.

Back in the 1980s when I was doing research on the Prussian Napoleonic army, I seem to recall a couple of reports that the Prussians during the initial unit muster assigned men to companies based on the color of their jackets/coats. The source implied that it was a cultural practice. Only certain class men could afford certain color dyes. So they grouped the men with other of the same class status!

So this may imply that som,e landwehr battalions in 1813 would have men wearing different colors in the same battalion but in different regiments.

That was a long time ago and I am not sure I can find the exact source anymore.

the Litwka was a civilian dress, mostly of dark blue or black colour, intially those were converted into "military" outlook – by adding collars in facing colour.

Of course wear and tear during the campaign would have led to a lot of makeshift replacements – but in my view – a complete regiment in gray Lietwkas – very unlikely

I agree. I have never seen any image of a Landwehr infantry regiment clad grey litewkas. Dark blue or black is the norm I think.

Bill

After an hour plus on Google, discussion with my group and research in all our books it would seem Bill is correct. The only color used seem to be Prussian Blue and Black. There was one reference stating that some men, if they could uniform themselves did so. However I would guess most would accept a new uniform, not knowing in many cases it was poorly made and shrank in the rain. A lot of references stated that they fell apart easily as well. However, I have found that many references would come from the same one. Some even word for word from other references I've read.

Dear All
I am almost on my final draft of my 3rd Volume on the Prussian Army dealing with the Landswehr and volunteers. So far 211 pages with about 300 illustrations.

Ludwig Scharf depicts a couple of the West Prussian Landwehr infantry in Grey Litewka and another in a reserve style uniform. Also a member of the Pomeranian Landwehr.

The 1st and 2nd Pomeranian Landwehr Cavalry Regiment wore grey Litewkas.

Landwehr when they could obtain them had grey greatcoats. A considerable amount of the equipment came from captured French and British.

Stephen

Thanks Stephen, when will publication be?

Dear Thomas
It should be available before Christmas. I have not talked to the publisher Partizan Press over the timing. I started work on this 20 years ago and it was good to get back to it again.

It needs to go for proof reading. Volunteers are always welcome.
Stephen

There is no question that after a while in the field the Landwehr, as any other line regiment would be quite colourful, but a whole regiment in grey Litewkas – not very likley.

As much as I like the pictures by Scharf, they are unscourced and one doesn't know on what his interpretations are based on.

The grey clad Landwehr by Scharf are not in Litewka but seeimingly in great coats.

the Litewka had a typical cut which was different to that of a great coat.

Hello Stephen,

Thanks for the information. I would be happy to proof read, but quite honestly I really don't know a whole lot about the Prussian army of the time. I've been reading books about the Napoleonic period, Napoleon and quite a lot about the British for many years, there's an amazing amount information.

Currently I'm painting up a 28MM Calpe Prussian Corps. Approx 550 figures. This is why my query regarding Litewkas.

Cheers,
Thomas

Dear von Winterfeldt
Alas the cartoon like drawings of Scharf are unclear. I think the Pomeranian Landwehrman seems to be as you say in Greatcoat as his colleage of the Rhineland (white greatcoat). The West Prussian Landwehrman is in what appears to be a Litewka.

As I have stated these are the only two depictions of Landwehr Infantry in Grey.

There are many depictions of the 1st and 2nd Pomeranian LKR in grey Litewkas.

As you comment upon unsourced illustrations. I have only seen the Elberfeld plates that are contemporary. The Genty plates are often mis-attributing the provinces.

The work of Knotel, Brauer etc… are based upon these plates especially Elberfeld. I do not have the notes or research carried out by Knotel to justify his choices. The illustration from French artists are very unreliable like Genty.

The questions are so difficult to answer at this distance from the war. The Landwehr were often lucky to have shoes and trousers.

I have seen many figure manufacturers especially in the new plastic that give a tidy appearance to the Landwehr. The Calpe look seems more real to me.

Writing a book is supposed to make you more certain upon things but the more you see the less uniformality there is.

There is a pattern to the shoulder straps. These denoted the battalions or the regiment. This depended upon whether they had originally been in Landwehr Brigades. Those Provinces created in 1814-15 seem to follow the Regimental distinctions path.

Lance pennant normally distinguished regiments. Although there are examples of them for squadrons eg Elbe LKR. The Seniority was White, Red, Yellow and Light Blue. In 1815 they were supposed to be white over black but this change seems to have been too late for the Waterloo campaign.

All I can do is present the illustrations as there is littleto say what is correct. Also the problems with the reproduction of blue that in many illustrations have changed to something akin to RAF blue (a grey with a hint of blue).

Stephen

You will find some useful info on Landwehr uniforms here and there in Richard Knötel's "Mittheilungen zur Geschichte der Militärischen Tracht". In this series, there are also Knötel's comments on Elberfeld and Genty.

Around 1850, the Prussian General Staff published a series of books on the organisation of the Landwehr in 1813/4, with some info on unifors as well. It seems only one volume is available online, but you will be able to get the others via inter libarary loan:

link

Many 20th century artists just copied (and slightly altered) images made by other artists, without own research. Therefore, having a dozen different images of Pomeranian Landwehr cavalry in gray litewkas proves nothing, if they all go back to the same unsourced illustration.

What is the source for the Elb Landwehr cavalry having different lance pennants for each squadron ?

Dear Oliver
The Grey Litewka is shown by Elberfeld and hence shown by later artists.

Elb Landwehr Cavalry seem to have different pennants for each squadron following the pattern above from illustrations by Knotel and the Brauer.

Thank you for your assistance. Please contact me if you would like to comment on a draft of the book.
Stephen

Thanks, this Landwehr cavalryman (Elberfeld manuscript, plate 19a, 12 April 1814) wears what for me seems to be a faded black litewka. His shako has got the same colour as the litewka and especially the lance pennant is black over white, its "black" having the same dark greyish appearance as litewka and shako.

Anyway, faded black is a shade of grey :-)

This man may be a member of the 2. Pommersches Landwehr-Kavallerie-Regiment. At least this regiment (called the 2. Pomm. Uhlanen) had been quartered in the town of Barmen (neighbour town to Elberfeld) on 9 April 1814 (Stadtarchiv Wuppertal, S IV (11) 870: Register zur Einschreibung der zu bequartirenden Militairs).

My impression is (from research I did some years ago, I haven't noted down the evidence, so now I am only 99% sure) that the Elberfeld artist put on his sketches not the date on which the unit marched through Elberfeld, but the day when he actually finished the portrait.

Do Herbert Knötel and Brauer give any source for their statement that the Elb-Landwehr-Kavallerie-Regiment had different lance pennants by squadron ?

Dear Oliver
Alas Bourdier shows a rather light grey Litewka for the 1st and 2nd Pomeranian LKR. No indication as his source. The Elberfeld of dark grey seems consistent with "black" cloth fading or not being dyed well. Also the problems of the dye not being properly mordanted.

The only indication is the pennants drawn. There is no other indication. It could be an explanation for the different colour pennants.

Yes the dates must be when he painted the illustrations and not the date of when the troops were in Elberfeld as there are a number of regiments that did not exist under the titles he gives.

The idea of the book is to present the illustrations and let them tell their tale.

Thank you for the input on the shoulder straps as I think I have a better understanding of this. Again this came from looking at the illustrations to see if there was a pattern. The Landwehr Infantry were in Brigades to 29 July 1813 so it is reasonable that they distinguished by battalion. Those Provinces established after this used regimental distinctions. That is a generalisation but fits closely the evidence that I have at hand.

Cheers
Stephen

Gentlemen,

Thank you for all your input. It's amazing to me what one question on TMP will bring up!

Cheers,
Thomas

Bourdier's work on Prussian uniforms in 1815 is completely unreliable. For example, he depicts the Tyrolean Jäger company which was dissolved in 1814 and never reformed. He gives provincial names for the new regiments created in March 1815, even though these did not receive them before 1816.

Of course a lot of information on uniforms in his work is correct. Other is not, or contradicts written evidence. As he doesn't give the sources for his statements, you never know whether to believe him or not.

For example, the 3. Elb-Landwehr-Infanterie-Regiment had green collars and cuffs, not light blue (see this book, I already linked before, p. 12):

link

Obviously, Bourdier hasn't read even the most basic sources on his subject.

His info on the uniforms of the three battalions of the 25. Infanterie-Regiment is completely wrong. Lützowers with their black litewkas (only about 1000 of them left in early 1815) made up the biggest part of the 3rd battalion (for which Bourdier gives the regulation uniform, plus the ghosts of the Tyrolans), those Lützowers who were in the 1st and 2nd battalion, were assigned to the third rank.

Compare what Bourdier writes about the uniforms of the 21. Infanterie-Regiment with the info given in my Osprey Warrior title.

To end with something constructive, here a link with some info on the Prussian Landwehr "cossacks" in the Neumark and Pomerania Landwehr:

link

Bourdier is realy a waste of money and time,

In my opinion the Prussian Landwehr – Elberfelder

Blatt 16 – 16 a doesn't how a Litewka but a greatcoat, compare with the man below where the Litewka is shown.

What I realy like at the Elberfelder is showing the shape of the Landwehr cap – more or less a conicl shako made of cloth.

Dear Winterfeldt
Thank you for your comments. Need to study and identify the units in Elberfelder better. Yes the Schirmutze is a very different shape to the normal depiction. Most follow the mid 19th century flatter cap. Thanks for the comment.

Stephen

The topic is quite complex, according to the instructions for the Landwehr of the Middle Rhine 1814 they should wear coats and shakos, in case I read the instructions correctly the coats were of different coloursin the battalions, blue, light blue and even green.

The Middle Rhine was not Prussian in the true sense, like Berg and others this area was administered by the Allies until its fate was decided in a final treaty (which would be signed at the Congress of Vienna).

The northern parts of the "General-Gouvernement des Mittel-Rheins" became part of the Prussian state as late as early 1815.

Oliver,

Those cossack Landwehr have a decidedly British Hussar style busby. Also the pants and jacket look similar to British Light Dragoons of the 1812 period. The Jacket is of course without the large lapel facings. The collar and cuffs are different as well.
The Shabraque is the similar to the one sculpted on the British Shako style Landwehr cavalry by Calpe, I have some.

Cheers,
Thomas

These cossack style uniforms for the 1st squadrons each of the 1st and 2nd Neumark Landwehr cavalry regiments were bought at the expenses of the province of Neumark.

link

So any similarity to British Light Dragoons uniform is just coincidental – but very practical though if you are looking for some miniatures to paint them as these Landwehr cossacks :-)

Dear Thomas
The colpak is drawn by Knotel of the Guard Cossack Volunteer Squadron. Those of the 1st and 2nd Neumark LKR were similar.

Those drawn by Schafer in Brauer are fuller and nore Russian. It was considered that all Prussian Landwehr cavalry would dress like the cossacks. It is very similiar to a Don Cossack down to the facings and red stripe on the Sharavas.

Stephen

The 1st and 2nd squadron of the 5. Ostpreußisches Landwehr-Kavallerie-Regiment had grey litewkas (all with red collars), whereas its 3rd squadron had blue litewkas.

link – p. 230

And I found another volume from the Prussian General Staff series on the organisation of the Landwehr, with most the basic laws and orders for the Prussian Landwehr in te appendix:

link