"Gaming Towton, with Scots & Borderers or w/out? " Topic

I'm once again considering starting to play with the idea of doing the battle of Towton, this time around in 15mm. The current order of battle list I'm going off of for troops is Terry Gore's War of The Roses scenarios book.

He lists a rather LARGE contingent of "Borderers" in the Kings army. He does not list any sources for this nor his reasoning.

I also recall reading somewhere that at 2nd St. Albans, the Queens army had a significant contingent of Scots and perhaps even some French mercenaries in it as well. As I recall, this is essentially the same army that went on to fight at Towton.

So, my question is, what are the arguments for or against Scots, Borderers, or French being present in the Kings Army at the battle?

Thanks!

U.K.

Yes, the Queen's army at 2nd St Albans had a large contingent of both Scots and northern men (probably including Borderers). However, a large number of them were "pressed men" and were really only there to swell the numbers. They were unpaid, since it was expected that they would take their "pay" in loot and plunder. Consequently when any serious fighting ensued, the bulk of the pressed men found urgent matters to attend to elsewhere than on the battlefield. Of the ~20,000 Lancastrians who started the campaign this had probably reduced to ~15,000 at 2nd St Albans due to desertion. Indeed, it is possible that the actual fighting at St Albans only involved about 5,000 men of the Lancastrian army.

Given that Towton follows only 6 weeks later, there is little opportunity for further recruiting to replace the deserters. Even so, a realistic estimate would put 30,000 Lancastrians in the field against 25,000 Yorkists at Towton. Of that 30,000, my guess is that half of them were the army that fought at St Albans and the other half were retinues of northern Lancastrian lords who had not ventured south with Margaret.

You ask about Borderers in the King's army. I presume you mean the Yorkist army. Given that Scots and Borderers were included in Margaret's army, I think it unlikely that any would be in the Yorkist ranks. Equally, the French were allied with the Scots and are known to have supported the Lancastrian cause so I think it unlikely that there were any in the Yorkist army. The only mercenaries known to have fought for the Yorkists at St Albans were 500 Burgundian handgunners.

My apologies, I was actually speaking of the Northern/Lancastrian "displayced" King Henry VI, when referring to the "King", though I appreciate the info about the Burgundian handgunners too.

I have heard some other information about the Yorkists having Xbow mercenaries as well, the most well known story being the death of Lord Dacre.

Back to Lancasters, any guesses as to what % of the Lancastrian force was made up of Northern or Scotish Mercenaries on the day of the battle, in your opinion?

Also, would you think the Scotish/ Borderers fought with long spear, or bill/bow as did their Southern neighbors?

Cheers.

Put 'em on horseback with crossbows. That's how they are coolest….

Hah! I dont think that started happening til about 1485 or later and certainly not in very large numbers. It does paint a picture though!

I have heard some other information about the Yorkists having Xbow mercenaries as well, the most well known story being the death of Lord Dacre.

There might well have been some crossbow armed mercenaries, though there seems to be a difference of opinion as to the circumstances of Lord Dacre's death. Depending on which sources you read he was either killed on the field of battle, that he was killed in a tavern the night before or that he was wounded in a delicate part of his body and died two days later! Whether the arrow that killed him was from a warbow or a crossbow is not definitely known either.

Back to Lancasters, any guesses as to what % of the Lancastrian force was made up of Northern or Scotish Mercenaries on the day of the battle, in your opinion?

Your guess is probably as good as mine. I think we can safely say that Northern or Scottish troops formed a small part of the army at Towton, but it is difficult if not impossible to quantify.

Also, would you think the Scotish/ Borderers fought with long spear, or bill/bow as did their Southern neighbors?

Again, opinions differ. In previous centuries the Scots were famous for their use of the long spear. The extent to which the long spear had possibly been replaced by the bill and bow is a matter of conjecture. Borderers would most likely have fought mounted similar to the Border horse of the 16th century, but it is equally possible that in a large battle such as Towton they would have dismounted to fight. Border horse seem to have been equipped with a variety of weapons, spears, polearms, bows, crossbows etc.

BTW, you might find this blog informative:
towton-2011.blogspot.com

Well, since my mum's side of the family were all Blackmores and Armstrongs, if you did Towton without Borderers, that would be like throwing a party and not inviting me.

I've got feelings, y'know…

Well, practically speaking, having some Border horse and Scots spearmen breaks up the boredom of painting all that bill & bow!

Well, practically speaking, having some Border horse and Scots spearmen breaks up the boredom of painting all that bill & bow!

That was one of the reasons why we used spearmen as part of our big Towton game.

I think we had this discussion some time before on TMP. It was certainly had on the Lance and Longbow Society yahoo group. The final analysis was that northern spearmen were probably a WRG invention and that the northern troops would have used bill and bow like everyone else. However, if northern spearmen did exist then there is every possibility that they were present at Towton because of the large number of northern lords that were present.

I recall a similar discussion at TMP as well. I forget who the bloke at LaLS is that use to chime in at TMP quite regularly, but he was solidly of the opinion that any "Boderers" (ie. "Northerners", etc…) during the WotR would have been outfitted with kit exactly like retainers in the south (ie. bill/bow).

Scots on the other hand, are still another issue. I figure Scots are still using 12' spear with no shield, maybe a buckler during this period, though most are wearing some armor like their southern neighbors.

I figure the same for Welsh of the period too. I dont see any reason they would be "spear armed" & "unarmored" as many lists suggest. I figure they would be equipped & armored as the English fought in all but the poorest communities.

Just picked this project up again! Going forward with 15mm minis and Hail Caesar rules. Im giving the Lancastrian side 5,000 Scots which will be mostly pike and a few hobilars.

There should be no difference between your Scots and English troops except for the preference of spears over bills and a larger proportion of archers. That said, remember that in these large conscriopted English armies a lot of the 'archers' are just guys issued with bows, they are not the same animal as the well-schooled archers of Crecy and Agincourt.

Hey Fat Bloke, I purchased LKM ( Feudal Castings) medieval pikemen as my Scots. So yes, they will be armored & attired just like the English.