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"WarMaster vs Hail Caesar" Topic


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Action Log

13 Jun 2011 3:52 p.m. PST
by Editor in Chief Bill

  • Changed title from "WarMaster vs Hail Ceasar" to "WarMaster vs Hail Caesar"

1,493 hits since 12 Jun 2011
©1994-2014 Bill Armintrout
Comments or corrections?

Last Hussar13 Jun 2011 3:13 p.m. PST

I found it odd they did an ancients version of a musket set that evolved from an ancients set that was a conversion of a fantasy set….

Has anybody played both. Is there a GOOD reason to buy HC is I have WM?

Personal logo Ogdenlulimus Supporting Member of TMP13 Jun 2011 3:26 p.m. PST

It's the next new shiny thing?

Personal logo Bob in Edmonton Supporting Member of TMP13 Jun 2011 3:37 p.m. PST

I'm playing tomorrow night.

On first blush, activation looks better than WM, the fiddly bit of removing standards to track casualties is replaced by markers, and combat is somewhat different (hard to know if it is better or worse without a play).

The book itself has relatively few army lists and instead a selection of scenarios. I'm still reading these but would rather have had lists, I think.

Personal logo Pictors Studio Sponsoring Member of TMP13 Jun 2011 3:40 p.m. PST

It is a lot better than warmaster, I think. The skirmishers are dealt with a lot more sanely for one, which is a huge improvement. The thing it still lacks is any real rule for phalanxes. There is a special rule in there but it doesn't seem to make phalanxes fight like phalanxes.

I've only played one game of it but it was a game similar to some of the worst games of Warmaster ancients that I played as far as armies went and it was a lot of fun.

I loved the fantasy version of warmaster, it is still one of the best games I've played. I didn't like the ancients version much but Hail Caesar has cleaned up a lot of what I didn't like and so far I'm enjoying it. I even pulled out, dusted off, fixed and touched up the Late Roman and Hun armies that I did for warmaster to give them another go.

Personal logo Pictors Studio Sponsoring Member of TMP13 Jun 2011 3:41 p.m. PST

"The book itself has relatively few army lists and instead a selection of scenarios. I'm still reading these but would rather have had lists, I think."

See, I'm of the opposite opinion. I can make my own lists and there are plenty of lists in just about every other ancient rule set out there, including warmaster. The scenarios in the book look pretty good and if they put out another one of just scenarios I'd buy it.

Wackmole9 Supporting Member of TMP13 Jun 2011 4:14 p.m. PST

Hello

I was a big fan of WM, but HC is a better game. I like the new activate rules and the Morale rules over WM anciants.

Sparker13 Jun 2011 5:21 p.m. PST

I think the key difference is in the scale of play. WM was designed for huge 12mm armies to be handled by a single player, whereas HC is designed for large 28mm armies handled by a team of players.

Personal logo aegiscg47 Supporting Member of TMP13 Jun 2011 5:31 p.m. PST

Bob, this is the second thread where you've stated something about WMA that I've never seen. "he fiddly bit of removing standards to track casualties is replaced by markers," You actually remove entire stands once they receive the required number of hits. The command stand is the last to go.

Anyway, as stated above it's really two different styles of play. Our group loves WMA and we've had some huge 2,000 points aside Seleucids vs. Indians battles that look like an ancients battle on the tabletop with lots and lots of figs! We'll probably try HC at some point, but I didn't care for BP that much. It seemed too generic and that you were pushing figs for the sake of pushing figs, but to each his own.

Personal logo Who asked this joker Supporting Member of TMP13 Jun 2011 5:59 p.m. PST

You actually remove entire stands once they receive the required number of hits. The command stand is the last to go.

And spare hits, if I'm not mistaken, are taken off as well…those hits that don't remove the stand right?

HC/BP requires that you either use markers on the table or keep a roster.

advocate14 Jun 2011 1:30 a.m. PST

The short answer is that if you enjoy WMA then there is no reason not to stick with it, but HC does have a different feel to it.

I'd say the command system is better in HC; I'm thinking of adapting it to BKC. You specify what you want to do, then roll to see how much you manage – rather than rolling each segment. It also has a limit of three actions (can't remember if that is in WMA).

HC is defintely scale-neutral; I've played it with both 10mm and 28mm figures and paln on using my 15mm Biblicals as well. If anything, it worked better at 10mm (using a reduced movement) as there was more opportunity to evade/recoil – and you need that with many armies. HC will probably suit 'smaller' games than WMA (ie, fewer units).

You will need more markers than WMA, and these often look better in larger scales (in 28mm I use swords/spears on a square base as 1 casualty point and shields for three: in 10mm I just put down small dice).

Hope this all helps.

brevior est vita Inactive Member14 Jun 2011 4:03 a.m. PST

Here are some of the major differences as I see them. Some have already been covered by previous posters.

In WMA, most units consist of three stands. Units in HC come in varying sizes: Standard, Large, Small, and Tiny. Unit frontage is a key factor, and most units are at least two ranks deep.

There is a wider range of troop types available in HC. There is also a much greater variety of possible unit formations.

In WMA, each unit may be given up to three commands per turn, with each command and dice roll being made in succession. In HC, the unit's orders must be stated out loud, then a dice roll determines whether the unit can make zero, one, two, or three moves to complete its orders. Move distances are also a bit smaller in HC.

In WMA, each unit has a single Attack value. In HC, each unit has two separate values for ranged combat (Short and Long), and two separate values for hand-to-hand combat (initial Clash and Sustained fighting).

There is no Armour Save in HC, although the Morale Save does serve a similar function. In HC, each unit also has a Stamina value if a unit takes more hits than this value, it becomes Shaken and suffers various penalties. Under certain circumstances, units being attacked in ranged or hand-to-hand combat also must take a Break test to see if they hold, give ground, or break and run away.

In WMA, armies tend to be built to standard point values. HC is much more oriented toward scenario play, with little emphasis on points-based armies. The HC rulebook includes seven complete sample scenarios.

IMHO both rule sets provide excellent games, but they do play quite differently.

Cheers,
Scott

Capitano Fevola Inactive Member14 Jun 2011 4:57 a.m. PST

Hail Caesar clearly has roots in Warmaster, but Rick Priestly's ideas have evolved with time & experience. It's like comparing a model T with modern car.

aecurtis Fezian Inactive Member14 Jun 2011 5:02 a.m. PST

Price of a Model T:

link

Personal logo Bob in Edmonton Supporting Member of TMP14 Jun 2011 6:01 a.m. PST

aegiscg47:

>Bob, this is the second thread where you've stated something about WMA that I've never seen. "he fiddly bit of removing standards to track casualties is replaced by markers," You actually remove entire stands once they receive the required number of hits. The command stand is the last to go.

t has been a while since I played Warmaster (maybe 2 years?) but I'm oretty sure you remove stands (not standards, my apologies) for ever four hits and drop any fractions at the end of a turn. So your units start to lose frontage and this also interacts with the command rolls mechanic.

From what I can tell in HC, you track hits until the hits exceed the unit's shaken value, then you drop any extra (after performing a couple of other tests). Once a unit fails a break test or if it takes a bunch of more hits and is shattered, then the whole unit comes off. No stand removal.

I hope that explanation is to your satisfaction.

Bob

Trajanus14 Jun 2011 11:10 a.m. PST

Regarding BP

It seemed too generic and that you were pushing figs for the sake of pushing figs, but to each his own

Don't let this put you off HC.

BP's big problem is trying to cover a period of large tactical and technological change in a simple manner.

HC doesn't have this issue and is a much more rounded game.

I switched from WMA to HC and its my best wargame move in ages (pause for groans)

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