"Jena Prussian regimental structure" Topic

So, The french had at thiis point 2 battalions in the field, one depo.

But what about the prussians, how many battalions were there in a regiment, and did the regiment fight was one, or was it like the british, were only one of them were in the field?

In my Lasalle Army builder I need 6 musketeer battalions, I'm not sure how to paint them, just two regiemtns? 3 regiments? 6 Regiments?

One google search later:

link

PDF link
Jena OOB

Most sources have the Prussians and Saxons with 5 companies per battalion. The Prussian King had spent an innordinate amount of time debating this issue.

Dave Jackson's link has the Prussians with 4 companies per battalion, but I don't know the source of that information.

Bill

the fifth company was the grenadier company and it was permanently detached from the parent regiment.

Each regt had two battions of 4 musketeer and 1 grenadier company. So there were 2 grenadier companies per regiment and these were converged on a permanent basis with 2 companies from another regiment. Thus the grenadier battalion was a single battalion of 4 grenadier companies.

The regiment was supposed to have both battalions deployed together although in 1806 we see some regiments being split up so that separate battalions of the same regiment fought at both Jena and Auerstadt

A

DAF – No, I don't think it means the grenadier company in this case.

I think the 4/5 company debate actually refer to the mid-18th Century Prussian practice of having five musketeer companies in each battalion, but then "telling off" the men into four divisions (each of two platoons) for fighting. There must have been some point – it was certainly after 1780, but presumably before 1806 – when the Prussians reduced the number of musketeer companies to conform to the number of divisions and make preparing for battle less complicated.

In 1806 Prussian Infantry Regiments consisted of 2 field battalions each of 5 Musketier companies and 1 Grenadier company. They also included a third Musketier batallion of 4 companies and an invalid company. From 1799 the grenadier companies were separated from their parent regiments and grouped in Grenadier battalions of four companies drawn from two different regiments.

link

Napoleon On-line Is the site of the German magazine "Despeche"

napoleon-online.de

Bill

Rüchel's units had a different structure as far as I remember, had made his regiments into 3 battalions of 3 – 4- 3 companies strength and placed them in two ranks.

As SM says; the five administrative companies were organised into four tactical 'divisions' in the field. So effectively, and for wargame purposes, you can happily consider the battalions to consist of four companies. The same issue is encountered in a number of Germanic armies – mainly those operating with the Prussian model.

Each battalion also had a grenadier company that would be detached and combined with grenadiers from another regiment to form a grenadier battalion.

Each musketeer and grenadier company also had a very small, rifle-armed Schuetzen detachment and a battalion gun detachment.

Here's the orbat for Auerstaedt that I stuck together for a game in 2000:

The Principal Royal Prussian Army
His Majesty, King Frederick-William III
Duke Charles William Ferdinand of Brunswick

Advanced Guard Division – Generalmajor Gebhard Lebrecht von Blücher

Cavalry Brigade of Generalmajor von Blücher
5 Sqns/4th ‘Württemberg' Hussar Regiment (detached to right wing)
5 Sqns/4th ‘Württemberg' Hussar Regiment (30 figures) [line]
8th ‘Blücher' Hussar Regiment (detached to Prince William's command)
3rd ‘Irwing' Dragoon Regiment (detached to right wing)

Cavalry Brigade of Generalmajor von Irwing (from von Schmettau's Division)
10 Sqns/5th ‘Queen Louise' Dragoon Regiment (2 x 30 figures) [veteran]

Elements of von Bünting's Cavalry Brigade (from von Schmettau's division – under von Irwing's command)
5 Sqns/8th ‘Heising' Cuirassier Regiment (30 figures) [line]

Cavalry Brigade of Generalmajor von Quitzow (from von Wartensleben's division)
5 Sqns/6th ‘Quitzow' Cuirassier Regiment (30 figures) [line]
5 Sqns/7th ‘Reitzenstein' Cuirassier Regiment (30 figures) [line]
6lb Horse Battery ‘Merkatz' (4 models) [line]

Light Infantry Brigade of Generalmajor von Oswald (detached to right wing)
4th ‘Greiffenberg' Füsilier Battalion (32 figures) [line]
8th ‘Koch' Füsilier Battalion (32 figures) [line]
16th ‘Oswald' Füsilier Battalion (32 figures) [line]
‘Weimar' Battalion, Fuss-Jäger Regiment (32 figures) [veteran]
6lb Horse Battery ‘Schorlemmer' (4 models) [line]
Brigade's Schützen Detachments (6 figures) [skirmishers (rifle)]

1st (Right) Division – Generalleutnant William Frederick, Prince of Orange

Brigade of Generalmajor, Prince Henry
2 Btns/34th ‘Prince Ferdinand' Infantry Regiment (2 x 32 figures) [line]
2 Btns/36th ‘Puttkamer' Infantry Regiment (2 x 32 figures) [line]
23/26 Grenadier Battalion ‘Rheinbaben' (32 figures) [veteran]
12lb Foot Battery ‘Reiner' (4 models) [line]
Brigade's Schützen Detachments (10 figures) [skirmishers (rifle)]

Brigade of Oberst von Lützow
2 Btns/25th ‘Möllendorff' Infantry Regiment (2 x 32 figures) [line]
2 Btns/59th ‘Wartensleben' Infantry Regiment (2 x 32 figures) [line]
19/25 Grenadier Battalion ‘Knebel' (32 figures) [veteran]
12lb Foot Battery ‘Lehmann' (4 models) [line]
Brigade's Schützen Detachments (10 figures) [skirmishers (rifle)]

Brigade of Oberstleutnant, Prince William of Prussia
5 Sqns/3rd ‘Leib Kürassiere' Cuirassier Regiment (30 figures) [line]
5 Sqns/11th ‘Leib Karabiniere' Cuirassier Regiment (30 figures) [line]
6lb Horse Battery ‘Willmann' (4 models) [line]

Elements of von Blücher's Cavalry Brigade (under Prince William's Command)
10 Sqns/8th ‘Blücher' Hussar Regiment (2 x 30 figs) [line]

2nd (Centre) Division – Generalleutnant von Wartensleben

Brigade of Generalmajor von Wedell
2 Btns/3rd ‘Renouard' Infantry Regiment (2 x 32 figures) [line]
2 Btns/5th ‘Kleist' Infantry Regiment (2 x 32 figures) [line]
5/20 Grenadier Battalion ‘Hanstein' (32 figures) [veteran]
12lb Foot Battery ‘Wilkens' (4 models) [line]
Brigade's Schützen Detachments (10 figures) [skirmishers (rifle)]

Brigade of Generalmajor von Renouard
2 Btns/20th ‘Prince Louis-Ferdinand' Infantry Regiment (2 x 32 figures) [line]
2 Btns/21st ‘Duke of Brunswick' Infantry Regiment (2 x 32 figures) [line]
3/21 Grenadier Battalion ‘Alt-Braun' (32 figures) [veteran]
12lb Foot Battery ‘Lange' (4 models) [line]
Brigade's Schützen Detachments (10 figures) [skirmishers (rifle)]

Cavalry Brigade of Generalmajor von Quitzow (detached to von Blücher)

3rd (Left) Division – Generalleutnant von Schmettau

Brigade of Generalmajor von Alvensleben
2 Btns/33rd ‘Alvensleben' Infantry Regiment (2 x 32 figures) [line]
2 Btns/35th ‘Prince Henry' Infantry Regiment (2 x 32 figs) [line]
37/57 Grenadier Battalion ‘Schack' (32 figures) [veteran]
12lb Foot Battery ‘Röhl' (4 models) [line]
Brigade's Schützen Detachments (10 figures) [skirmishers (rifle)]

Brigade of Generalmajor von Schimonsky
2 Btns/28th ‘Malschitzsky' Infantry Regiment (2 x 32 figures) [line]
2 Btns/40th ‘Schimonsky' Infantry Regiment (2 x 32 figures) [line]
48/59 Grenadier Battalion ‘Krafft' (32 figures) [veteran]
12lb Foot Battery ‘Stankar' (4 models) [line]
Brigade's Schützen Detachments (10 figures) [skirmishers (rifle)]

Cavalry Brigade of Generalmajor von Irwing (detached to von Blücher)

Cavalry Brigade of Generalmajor von Bünting (detached to right wing)

Right Wing Cavalry – No Commander

Cavalry Brigade of Generalmajor von Bünting
8th ‘Heising' Cuirassier Regiment (detached to von Blücher)
5 Sqns/12th ‘Bünting' Cuirassier Regiment (30 figures) [line]
6lb Horse Battery ‘Graumann' (hors de combat after losing five guns at Hassenhausen during the initial skirmishes in the fog)

Elements of von Blücher's Cavalry Brigade (under von Bünting's command)
5 Sqns/4th ‘Württemberg' Hussar Regiment (30 figures) [line]
5 Sqns/3rd ‘Irwing' Dragoon Regiment (30 figures) [line]

Attached Cavalry (under von Bünting's command)
5 Sqns/2nd ‘Beeren' (‘Gelbe Reiter') Cuirassier Regiment (30 figures) [line]

Reserve Corps – Generalleutnant, Graf von Kalckreuth

1st Reserve Divison – Generalleutnant von Kunheim

Brigade of Generalmajor von Hirschfeld
6th ‘Garde Grenadier Battalion' Infantry Regiment (40 figures) [élite]
I ‘Leibgarde' Battalion/15th ‘Garde' Infantry Regiment (40 figures) [élite]
II & III Btns/15th ‘Garde' Infantry Regiment (2 x 40 figures) [veteran]
12lb Foot Battery ‘Faber' (4 models) [line]
Brigade's Schützen Detachments (8 figures) [skirmishers (rifle)]

Brigade of Generalmajor von Zastrow
2 Btns/18th ‘King's' Infantry Regiment (2 x 32 figures) [line]
1/13 ‘Prince Augustus' Grenadier Battalion (32 figures) [veteran]
18/27 ‘Rabiel' Grenadier Battalion (32 figures) [veteran]
7lb Howitzer Battery ‘Alkier' (4 models) [line]
Brigade's Schützen Detachments (8 figures) [skirmishers (rifle)]

Cavalry Brigade of Generalmajor von Beeren
5 Sqns/10th ‘Gensd'armes' Cuirassier Regiment (30 figures) [veteran]
5 Sqns/13th ‘Garde du Korps' Cuirassier Regiment (30 figures) [veteran]
6lb Horse Battery ‘Scholten' (4 models) [line]

2nd Reserve Division – Generalleutnant von Arnim

Brigade of Generalmajor von Zenge
2 Btns/13th ‘Arnim' Infantry Regiment (2 x 32 figures) [line]
2 Btns/22nd ‘Pirch' Infantry Regiment (2 x 32 figs) [line]
24/35 ‘Gaudi' Grenadier Battalion (32 figures) [veteran]
22/36 ‘Osten' Grenadier Battalion (32 figures) [veteran]
12lb Foot Battery ‘Heiden' (4 models) [line]
Brigade's Schützen Detachments (12 figures) [skirmishers (rifle)]

Brigade of Generalmajor von Malschitzsky
2 Btns/24th ‘Zenge' Infantry Regiment (32 figures) [line]
2/11 ‘Schlieffen' Grenadier Battalion (32 figures) [veteran]
12/34 ‘Hülsen' Grenadier Battalion (32 figures) [veteran]
12lb Foot Battery ‘Bychelberg' (4 models) [line]
Brigade's Schützen Detachments (8 figures) [skirmishers (rifle)]

A few questions here if anyone knows:

1. Did the Prussians call those divisions 'platoons' or have multiple platoons in a division or was 'platoon' another operational description of the company?

2. Each battalion supposedly had 40 Schutzen, 10 per company, though with five administrative companies, were there 50 schutzen? I have seen both assertions.

3. Each battalion had 40 men designated as 'reserves'. Does anyone know who these men were and what they did. I find it suggestive that the number is the same as the schutzen. The lists I have seen show each battalion with 40 schutzen and among the other supernumeries, 40 reserves.

Bill

SMD,

>the five administrative companies were organised into four tactical 'divisions' in the field.<

Do you have a source for this. The 1788 Reglement talks about the company being formed in two or four zügen for tactical purposes. Battalion manouevre appears to be by zügen rather than company.

Bill

Hi Bill,

It's twelve years since I last researched this, so I can't remember, sorry. All I've got to hand here is Frederician stuff and the five-company/four-division battalion is discussed. All the post-Frederician Prussian material I looked at was in someone else's collection.

God alone knows why this disparity between companies and divisions was the case. It's been the cause of constant bafflement to me since I first read it and I don't recall ever seeing an explanation of why they didn't just form four administrative companies that matched the tactical divisions.

RMD,

Thanks for that. I have seen this discussion many times but I have never seen anything convincing to contradict Jany.

In his 1903 Die Gefechtsausbildung der Pressischen Infanterie 1806 he says that the four company establishment of the musketeer battalion in the 1788 regulations was increased to five companies from 1799. Each company was divided into two zugen for ten zugen per musketeer battalion which fired in the following order 1, 3, 5, 7, 9, 2, 4, 6, 8, 10. He also give the establishment of the battalion schutzen as 50 (10 per company).

It seems to me that we have five field companies which yielded 10 tactical zugen.

Bill

Von W,

I think you are right. The 1798 Instruction describes how the third rank of a four-company battalion could be used to form a reserve if required. It seems that Rüchel was not necessarily doing something particularly unusual.

I have also seen evidence that the third rank was also used to support the schutzen in 1806. I have no idea how often this happened but it was certainly not unheard of.

The myth of the rigidly inflexible Prussian infantry in 1806 is one of the most persistent from the period.

Bill

Actually, in the Spring of 1806, the Prussian King authorized the formation of third battalions from the third ranks of the first two battalions of each regiment. The third battalion was specifically to be light. Ruchel was only following the 'new' organization. That most Prussian infantry didn't is because there was no time to make the change, with all the other 'changes' Scharnhorst and others were attempting last minute.

Brunswick wrote instructions in 1791 on how to use the third rank as a reserve or skirmishers. The use of the third rank as a reserve was part of the Prussian regulations long before that.

During their participation in the French Revolutionary Wars Brunswick was the commander of the Prussian forces and the Prussians did use the third rank as skirmishers and a reserve during the war. Scharnhorst and others commented on this practice in defending the use of the third rank as skirmishers. It was a topic of discussion in Scharnhorst's military society before 1806.

And I agree, Bill. The idea that the Prussians were rigidly "Frederickian" in their tactics in 1806 is indeed a persistent myth, repeated over and over by respected historians without much critical thought in the late 19th Century and through the 20th Century.

Bill

The musketeer battalions had five company and 50 Schützen, Grenadiers however only 4 companies and consequently 40 Schützen, don't forget the Füsiliere which were on a 4 company structure as well and in two ranks.

To sum up

Musketeer battalion 5 companies
Grenadier battalion 4 companies
Füsilier battalion 4 companies

For manoeuvering, the companies, which always formed in 3 ranks, were split in two platoons each, so that a musketeer battalion consisted of 10 platoons, and a grenadier battalion of 8 platoons. The guard battalions also were formed in 8 platoons. On 1 October 1806, general lieutenant v. Rüchel changed this for the corps under his command, ordering that the regiments in his corps should be reformed in three battalions of two ranks only. The 1st and 3rd battalions of 3 companies in 6 platoons, with one cannon each, the 2nd battalion of 4 companies in 8 platoons with two cannons. However, he envisaged to combine the regimental guns of a brigade to form a brigade battery.

(From link – there is no preview)

Not a lot wrong with the Prussians of 1806 down at company/battalion and squadron/regiment level or even battery level. The problems that lead to their defeat occurred above that level. Courage certainly wasn't one of them. An easy way to understand what went wrong in 1806 is to study what the Prussian "reformers" changed by 1812, when Yorck next took a contingent on campaign.

My scruffy notes from a few years ago out of Hoepfner below.

It's probably not important to get overly hung up over 8 zuge versus 5 companies.
Although to modern people in an organised ordered world the concept of combat platoons not matching administrative companies makes no sense – for the world in 1800 they had millennia of experience of having no match what so ever nor written of any great purpose in trying to achieve it, tactics & organisational skills were only just becoming sophisticated enough to make it viable & desirable.

Ruchel had his force organized by the 5th July guidance probably because he was the Head of the military organisation commission that issued them.
(Except the Bavarians the only army regs to dictate 2 ranks for Line infantry on all occasions I know of in that era)

--------------------------------------------------------
Hoepfner Eduard von General, Krieg von 1806 und 1807, 4 vols, Berlin 1891-1896 Vol 1

Each Line regiment had 2 Grenadier coy, 2 musketeer battalions each of 5 coys, and a 3rd depot unit of 4 companies
Formed for battle in 8 Zuge.

Grenadier coy had 14x uo, 5 spiel., 10 shutzen, 160 grenadier
Line coy had 12x uo, 3 spiel, 10 schutz, 130 gemeine

Grenadiers of 2 regiments joined to make a battalion
Guards were 6 co, each 4of,10uo,3 spiel, 122 grenadiere,

P87 in 1803 Militär-Organisations-Kommission set up
5th July 1806
1. Each regiment = 3 Field battalions of 4 coys, of 840, zahl der Schutzen von 100 auf 140 vermehrt werden.
2. Artillerie reorganise using 16 light batteries 6x 6pdr cannon and 2 7pdr howitzers
3. die errichtung einer sapper coy. Aus den etats der artilleristen der 3 bat.
4. 4 mobilisation districts

on mobilisation the fusilier canon and mortar batteri zuruckgelassen wurden.,
doch gaben sie auch Veranlassung, dass mehrere Generale die Reg.
Cannon formed in batteries
Force under General Ruchel, Infanterie Regiments of 3 battalion and in two ranks were formed.

Fusiliers of 4 coys ea. 12xuo, 3 spiel, 20 schutz, 130 fusilieren.
P53 ea grenadier and musketier battalion had 2x 6pdr
P54 Fusiliers had 1x 3pdr ; 1806 wurden die Fusilier Geschutzte nicht mehr mit genommen.

Höpfner seems to be wrong concerning the 4 platoons per battalion.

If you look at Rüchel's disposition of 1st October 1806 (Höpfner, vol. 1 pp. XXI-XXV), a regiment (2 batallions of 5 companies each) was to be reorganised into

1st battalion with 3 companies in 6 platoons
2nd battalion with 4 companies in 8 platoons
3rd battalion with 3 companies in 6 platoons

This means that every company was split up in two platoons.

In article 10 of his instuction, Rüchel orders:

"Against the enemy cavalry, the infantry will cease to use the artificial fire of the 5 platoons […]"

This obviously refers to the organisation of 5 companies per battalion in 10 platoons.

On 5 October 1805 it had been ordered that in order to repulse cavalry attacks, all odd platoons were to fire, and then all the even ones (Jany, Gefechtsausbildung, pp. 50 f.).

link

Prior to 1806 (during the Revolution) the Prussian infantry battalions were made up of 4 companies, but each regiment had a 3rd (grenadier) battalion. The 1806/07 organization (and uniforms) were rather short lived. I'm assuming that's were the Dave Jackson '4 company assumption' comes from

Following an order of 28 February 1799, from 1 June of the same year each infantry regiment consisted of two field battalions of five musketeer companies each, plus two grenadier companies. The grenadier companies of two regiments each were combined into a grenadier battalion, which was to act independently on a permanent basis both in peacetime and during hostilities.

Every infantry regiment, except the Guards, contained a third musketeer battalion (3. Musketier-Bataillon) of four companies, which acted as the regimental depot and therefore upon mobilisation did not march into the field with the army, but instead trained reinforcements.

For those old soldiers who had become unfit for service, there was one invalid company (Invaliden-Kompanie) per regiment.

On 5 July 1806, the king ordered that in future every infantry regiment should consist of three field battalions of four companies each, plus two grenadier companies and one depot company (Depot-Kompanie). By order of 1 December 1807, the designation of this company was to be changed to garrison company (Garnison-Kompanie).

Owing to the mobilisation for the 1806 campaign, the execution of this order was postponed.

(same source as above)

Oliver,

That is exactly my understanding too. I am quite clear that Prussian musketier battalion during the 1806 camapign consisted of five companies in 10 tactical platoons.

Bill

Bill,

That's interesting; I have seen references to Prussian and Hesse Cassel units deploying in 5 companies/10 platoons in the SYW* and the AWI+, respectively, despite the common belief being that both adopted the 4 division/8 platoon form in those wars. Has there been a mistake made at some point – either in translation or interpretation – that has generated the false view of the 4/8 formation as being the norm?

* this was at the start of the SYW when the battalions were at full strength

+ this is a first person account of the von Bose regiment at Guilford Court House, where "two of the five companies" turned about to deal with an attack from the rear

SM,

I'm afraid I don't know about the SYW or AWI. The change from four to five in the Prussian army, which only affected the musketier battalions, was in 1799.

Bill

The Prussian 1788 regulation for the infantry (at that time with four musketeer companies per battalion) still has got (Erster Theil, Titul IV, Art. 4 – pp. 36-43) an instruction for the 1., 2. und 3. Bataillon Garde [No. 15] and the Bataillon von Rohdich [Grenadier-Garde-Bataillon, No. 6].

These four battalions still consisted of 6 companies (including one Flügel-Grenadier-Kompanie). The latter were combined in an independent grenadier battalion, the remaining 5 companies per battalion were to be arranged in 8 platoons (p. 39).

I don't know about the earlier arrangements.

According to "Geschichte der Kriege seit dem jahr 1792"(but dutch translation of 1842)the prussian line regiment of 1792 consisted of one grenadier, 2 musketier and one depot battalion. Grenadier/musketier of 4 companies (appr. 700 men per batt) and the depot of 3 companies. Each company had 10 skirmishers.The fusilier battalions had also 4 companies but with 20 skirmishers

@Duc,

But the change to five companies in musketier battalions took place in 1799, seven years later.

Bill

You are right, mixed up years

@Duc,

On reflection I was wondering if you were answering SM about the SYW and AWI! Maybe we should all meet somewhere in a bar have a few beers over the subject!!!

Bill

Bill,
I did
Let's see if we can meet halfway?

Hofschröer has:

"The musketeer battalions consisted of five companies each of two platoons, drawn up in three ranks. The grenadier battalions consisted of four companies, each of two platoons drawn up in three ranks. The fusilier and Jaeger battalions were also of four companies with each of the eight platoons fighting in two ranks."

With Regiment Treuenfels as the only line at Jena to have the 3 battalions in 2 ranks structure.

greatest-battles.webs.comGB/Jena/ThePrusso-SaxonArmyAtJenaByPeterHofschroer.htm

I really appreciate the sources mentioned and the very clear discussion. If any of you have run across answers to the following, I would really appreciate knowing what they were:

1. Each battalion supposedly had 40 Schutzen, 10 per company, though with five administrative companies, were there 50 schutzen? I have seen both assertions. I see above that Hoepfner has a regiment = 3 Field battalions of 4 coys, of 840, zahl der Schutzen von 100 auf 140 vermehrt werden. 50 Schutzen per battalion at Jena?

Obviously, with 10 Schuten per company doesn't equal 100 to 140 schutzen per regiment.

2. Each battalion had 40 men designated as 'reserves'. Does anyone know who these men were and what they did. I find it suggestive that the number is the same as the schutzen. The lists I have seen show each battalion with 40 schutzen and among the other supernumeries, 40 reserves.

Bill