"British & Indian Armour in Burma - Painting Guide" Topic

I've updated the British & Indian Armour Painting Guide here:

PDF link

I've included photos of my painted models, as well as photos of the actual tanks. There are also some changes to the text and illustrations, based on new information.

Very cool and very thorough, sir. Thank you for posting this.

No worries. There is a slight mistake though – the caption for the 7th Light Cavalry Stuart photo is totally ballsed up. Version 1.3 will be up shortly.

Lovely great whopping load of information; nice work on both the PDF and models. Thank you!!!

I don't think your vehicles are nearly dusty enough, thou.

Allen

Yeah I know… but then what's the point in painting lovely markings if you just go and pile them with stowage, barbed wire, mud and Japanese suicide-bombers?!

Magic work, many thanks!

You're welcome. Version 1.3 is up now, so all fixed.

Very nice, Very well done !!

Thanks Mark, that is very interesting and timely.

Nice tanks too.

I question whether aecurtis is right in saying they should be dusty. Surely in the rainy Far East they'd be muddy?

It depends on the time of year – it gets very dry and dusty in the Dry Season, which is roughly equivalent to Winter and Spring. A lot of fighting in 1942 and 1945 also occurred on the central Burmese 'Dry Belt', which is pretty arid.

And that's when the majority of the photos included in the PDF were taken, it appears.

Allen

It's when most of the fighting took place. It was also virtually impossible to move armour off the few paved roads during the Wet/Monsoon Season, as the Japanese 14th Tank Regiment found out when they finally reached Imphal as the Monsoon broke in May/June 1944.

I have always wondered how extensively the Bren Gun Carrier was used in Burma. I've never been able to find any pictures of them, so it's good to see you included a couple in the guide, makes me happier to use them…

There isn't a lot of information available, so it's a case of piecing together fragments.

In 1941/42 many Indian battalions in the Far East didn't have Carrier Platoons at all ad it is an almost impossible task trying to work out who did and who didn't. For example, there is no mention of them in the battalions at Hong Kong, but one of the Japanese regimental commanders bemoaned the loss of his anti-tank company, as he was 'plagued' by Rajput Carriers. In Burma circa 1942, the only mention I can find of Indian Carriers is when the 7/10th Baluchs lost their 'Carrier Platoon, comprising Wheeled India Pattern Carriers' in an ambush on the Rangoon-Mandalay Road.

By 1944 a great many infantry battalions binned Carriers altogether – either mounting the Carrier Platoon in Jeeps or dismounting them altogether as a Bren-heavy recce/fire support platoon. This also often attracted a name-change to 'Assault Platoon'. Even those divisions that were meant to have kept their full mechanisation (e.g. British 2nd Division) soon ditched much of it once they were deployed into the field.

There is an account of 20th Indian Division at Imphal massing all its Carrier Platoons into ad hoc Brigade Carrier Companies; to be used as 'fire-brigades' to counter Japanese penetrations.

There are also references to artillery OP Carriers being used by 17th Indian Division at Imphal, which seems strange given that they were officially the army's 'Light Division'.

2nd Recce Regiment retained some Carirer mechanisation, but ditched its armoured cars and LRCs, using Jeeps instead.

81st (West African) Recce Regiment served as XV Corps Recce Regiment in the Arakan for the Second Arakan Campaign (Dec 43 to May 44), retaining full mechanisation for that period. However, they dismounted completely during the Monsoon of 1944 and from that point forth were a light, riverine recce regiment, using mainly native Arakanese 'khisti' boats.

Thanks for the info.

So, for a '44+ British battalion it would be less likely, but still possible (as I have the toys…)

The comments about 20th Indian Division is particularly interesting, as if these 'fire brigade' companies are operating together, then they would presumably be mixed British/Indian/Gurkha formations?

Funny, my experience in the muddy tropics is that tracked carriers have it all over wheeled vehicles. Why use jeeps rather than carriers or AC?

Bimey, missed this post the other day – nice work RMD; reminds me I must finish my Stuart company some time….

Grizzly – width may be a factor; given the amount of hacking and clearing necessary to clear a route for *any* vehicle to pass, the narrower it is the better….

"Why use jeeps rather than carriers or AC?"

Speculating, but Jeeps would use up far less fuel (and therefore require less trucks to support them) and they'd be easier to pull out of the mud if they did get stuck.

Or carry

You've already answered the question – a Jeep could simply be picked up and carried out of trouble. It could even be dismantled and manpacked through terrain that would not otherwise be accessible to Jeeps (yes, really – I've got a photo somewhere to prove it!). As has also been said, while Universal Carriers were excellent vehicles, Jeeps had the edge when it came to keeping them going in apalling conditions and at the end of an astonishingly long logistical chain. CMP 15cwt trucks and Dodge Weapons Carriers were also beloved of XIVth Army (though the West African divisions just said 'sod it' and put everything on their heads or in a Dakota to be dropped to them later).

Re Brigade Carrier Companies – yes, they'd be mixed if the brigade was mixed, which they usually were (though there were some all-Gurkha brigades knocking around). For example, 32 Indian Infantry Bde (20 Indian Div) at Imphal had 1st Northants, 9/14th Punjab and 2/3rd Gurkhas (iirc).

I'll try to find the extract that referred to the massed 'Carrier Companies'. It's somewhere in Lyall-Grant's 'Burma: The Turning Pont'. IIRC they saw some frantic action during the 2nd Battle of Bishenpur, south of Imphal in late May 1944, when the Japanese 214th and 215th Regiments finally managed to circumvent 32 & 63 Brigades in the hills west of Logtak Lake and attacked Bishenpur from the flank and rear. The Japanese also managed to cut the main Bishenpur-Imphal road and came very close to overrunning HQ 17th Indian Division – it was at that point that the massed Carriers proved decisive. It's been a while since I've read it, so I'm hazy on the detail.

I've updated the Burma painting guide again; this time adding a heap of photos of actual tanks in Burma:

PDF link

Wow excellent resource R Mark!

Thanks R Mark! Great work

You're welcome. Just for Bindon Blood, I've included lots more photos of Carriers – my favourites being the self-propelled 3-inch mortar and the 'amphibious' Carrier.

Well done! Thank you for all that excellent information.

I am a little late to the party. Outstanding work! Many thanks for all the time and trouble to assemble such an extensive guide.

Bizarrely I think I saw the amphibious carriers in a film while I was waiting at the takeaway for a curry yesterday!

No idea of the name of the film, was a WW2 colour seemingly set in Greece or its islands with Allied fugitives on the run from Germans sporting high-sided carriers painted sand and green. I thought they had tried to disguise them as Hanomags but maybe not!

Timbo,

I guess those were the ones with deep-wading sides? I'd always seen photos of them in Normandy, but never seen them wrt Burma before.

Actually, the 'amphibious' Carrier I was talking about is the ad hoc one with oil-drums lashed to the sides! Brilliant! :o)

Typically, I've just found a book with a whole load more tank-names for 25th Dragoons, 19th Lancers, Probyn's Horse, Royal Deccan Horse, 116th RAC, 150th RAC and 3rd Carabiniers, so there will be a v1.6 along soon…

Yep the deep-wading sides ones indeed.

I imagine they must have either survived post-war (probably a late 50s-60s film?) or the film-makers concocted some deep-wading-esque high sides to make them look less like Carriers.

In the section of film I saw the Allied soldiers on the run are concealed by a young goatherd moving his flock in front of their hidey-hole while playing the panpipes, maybe somebody will recognise it?

Thanks Mark, you've been incredibly generous with your time and knowledge…I'd better knock up some markings for my wife's tanks.

You're welcome. Of course, the beauty of armour in Burma is that you don't have to paint the markings if you don't feel like it. ;o)

So, green? No shots of India Pattern Carriers?

Yes, one of a selection of crappy shades of green and covered in stowage and crud (though in this man's XIVth Army they bloody well keep them tidy!). ;o)

I can't find any photos of India Pattern Wheeled Carriers in Burma and there are only sketchy clues as to who used them and in what roles.

In 1942 they served the Carrier Platoons of those Indian infantry battalions that were lucky enough to have such things. There is an account describing an ambush during the retreat from Rangoon, where a British Carrier Platoon in tracked Carriers was accompanied by a Baluchi Carrier Platoon in wheeled Carriers. God alone knows what markings they would have had (if any).

17th Indian Division reported abandoning an 'armoured car' in the Kabaw Valley in late 1943, but there weren't any mechanised recce units anywhere near there at the time. This seems to have been a command or recce vehicle belonging to an Engineer Field Company and may well have been an IP Carrier, as they were popular in the engineer recce role in Italy due to their excellent cross-country performance and good amount of internal space for sapper kit.

In 1943-44 there are various vague references to armoured cars, but it's very difficult to pin down exactly what they were. For example, 81st West African Recce Regiment in the Arakan used Light Recce Cars of some sort (alongside Universal Carriers), but the type of LRC is not mentioned and they might well have been IP Wheeled Carriers.

The 3rd Gwalior Lancers, also in the Arakan, had a Horsed Wing and a Mechanised Wing, but again there are absolutely no details to be found on what the Mechanised Wing consisted of.

The 11th PAVO (or it might have been the 16th LC – memory's a bit hazy) in 1945 however, are a bit more specific in their accounts – each squadron had two or three armoured car troops (a mixture of Dingos, Daimler ACs and Fox Mk II ACs) and three lorried/Jeeped recce troops. Each lorried troop included an IP Wheeled Carrier used as a self-propelled 3-inch Mortar. This is the only specific mention I've ever found for IP Carriers in Burma.

One more use for India Pattern Carriers – Bill Slim mentions getting a ride in one belonging to 17th Indian Division HQ in 1942 (it was General Cowan's personal transport).

Slim also mentions the creation of a single composite Corps Carrier Platoon from the surviving Carriers (tracked and wheeled) during the retreat from Rangoon.

Some more info on the British 2nd Recce Regiment – they reorganised for Burma into an unusual organisation of four squadrons – three Recce Squadrons and an Assault Squadron. Each Recce Squadron had one (Universal) Carrier Troop and three Motor Troops (probably Jeep-mounted), while the Assault Squadron was organised as a motorised infantry company (presumably in 15cwt trucks, perhaps with one troop in Jeeps?). Armoured Light Recce Cars (unknown type – Humber, Morris, Otter or IPCs?) were used in RHQ and each Sqn HQ.

The aforementioned Universal Carrier-mounted 3-inch mortars also fitted in somewhere – either as a regimental Mortar Troop or as individual Mortar Sections within each Squadron.

thanks R Mark Davies!

I've been saving one for my XIV army figures, but never found a pic of one east of India. Except NZ version in Korea!

There's a Pathe newsreel of some in the Western Desert on the Imperial War Museum site showing the mortar carrier. However no way to tell which way the mortar faced! Any Ideas?

I have seen a photo of a wheeled mortar carrier in Italy and the mortar was facing forward (though for all I know it might have been on a turntable – there was probably enough room).

@ R Mark Davies;

Thanks for the info! Now, to put the IPC mortar carriere in my desert or Burma army?

Next Question! Have you ever seen a pic of a beute-panzer IPC?

You can go for both – documentary evidence for them in Burma and photographic evidene for them in the Med. :)

Nope, never seen any evidence for the Germans employing captured examples, but never say never!