"Ex-FASA Renegade Legion games - who has the IP now?" Topic

I'm totally confused about the chain of ownership/licensing on the old RL games – Interceptor, Centurion, Leviathan, Prefect, Legionnaire. Anyone know who actually holds the IP at this point?

I hold them! A box of each one of them. :)

Sorry.
Couldn't keep myself from doing this.

The things I've done with the Kraken when I was 19 years old.

We had a ongoing campaign where the one that defeated the Kraken would go on playing with it.

I kept the Kraken for 19 games and then we stopped. I still own the Kraken to these days… in a low orbit, behind the moon.

CinC still sells the fighters

I always liked the toothpaste boxes a lot.

It was with Team Frog for a while, but that's been years ago now. I suspect the IP is buried in a disused filing cabinet behind the desk that is all that remains of FASA.

Was Nightshift even part of Team Frog in those days? I thought they were independent at that point, but like I said, the whole thing is confusing to me.

As far as I last heard off the RenLeg Yahoo Group, the rights were held by Wizkids. When Wizkids went belly-up, I do not know where the rights went. I would investigate with the Yahoo group to learn more recent info. As Topps transfered (?) rights of Battletech to Catalyst, perhaps RenLeg went with them. Anyway, I'd start a search there.

@Bayushiseni Bayushiseni Bayushiseni…tsk tsk

Sorry folks he does not hold the IP to Renegade Legions…I do!

Not sure what my plans are with the product line but once I complete my astral travel vacation to Mars and take my N.E.W.T. exams then I will be in a better place to decide.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
I do believe that Paul never had any claim to the IP for Renegade Legions, if I remember right he had a license to make new products; making one or two suppliments.

The Nightshift games was another division of Frog God efforts…allowing for some less comical projects.

*****

I would say that former FASA president and Renegade Legion designer, Sam Lewis, has the rights at this time.

Seems like there was supposed to be a new edition come out, but I am not sure now if it ever did.

found this, so I assume that was what was to be released.

link

I have played it (back in the day) but I just couldn't hack a game (Interceptor) where I had to go right the way through a flow chart with a dice throw at every nexus, just to find out that I hadn't been damaged anyway

That's the sort of 'simulator' they invented computors for…

John T

Interceptor was the only game that used a "wiring diagram" for damage, which I didn't find overly difficult to use personally. If you skipped on Centurion because of that, you made a serious mistake.

It appears there's no certain knowledge on who the rights holder is?

You are looking at 5.1.97 there for the update… That was a while ago…

I always loved this game, and was glad they used that combat system for their old Crimson Skies game.

A friend and I tried several years ago to purchase the rights for the Renegade Legion universe, we were both big fans. Emails to FASA returned with the comment that the rights had been transferred to Nightshift games. However, our contacts with Nightshift said essentially what's been stated here – they didn't have the rights to produce much in the way of new material and that, in fact, they had "lost interest" in the project. A while later we heard from FASA that the rights had been transferred back to them. Despite offering a fairly significant investment to get the IP rights to RL, FASA never replied… and went out of business not long afterwards.

Real unfortunate – that was a phenomenal setting, and the games weren't bad. Was badly neglected in favor of Battletech. Would love to get my grubby hands on the license for my own company today, but I seriously doubt they'd be willing to sell…

Nightshift's license tenure was mid-90s.

The Renegade Legion novels, Renegade's Honor, Damned If We Do…, Frost Death, and Monsoon were excellent. Just a shame there wasn't more of them.

Regards to all

Vulture

(My Blog link )

Were any dealing with space much? Even the one that was supposed to be 'navy' spent much of the time, at least in the first half that I was able to get through, in the equivalent of 'the spice mines of Kessal'.

Doug

That does raise the question: What happens to an IP when there is no clear owner?

1. "No clear owner" is not the same as "no owner." Not being able to determine the ownership of IP or to locate the rights-holder doesn't allow you to use it. Death generally transfers rights to heirs, who may be very difficult to locate.

2. Everybody sues everybody else.

Not to be snarky, but I have an idea.

I would be willing to bet you a fair amount of money that if someone, anyone, was to take the name Renegade Legion and make a PDF supplement…sell it online…and wait.

If anyone out there actually still lays claim to the IP they will pipe up.

*****

Crappy way to do business, not how I would do it, but it would work to draw out the roach that is holding onto it.

*****

If anyone is serious about the IP and is willing to actually put money that would entice the holder then I would be willing to do the leg work to find the owner just for the fun of doing it.

I do have a potential contact but again it is a legal contact and these types don't even take a phone call without charging someone :)

PM if really interested.

28mmMan has the right of it, though i agree the technique might stink. I'm keen on that myself, but with another game. I'll post a seperate thread.

Interceptor was the only game that used a "wiring diagram" for damage, which I didn't find overly difficult to use personally.

Sorry, I loved the flow chart idea for damage. For our group, that was half the fun of the game -- especially on the rare occasion you had some lucky sod just shot full of holes surrounded by exploding systems like he was on the bridge of the Enterprise, and yet still in the game.

Unwieldy, unscalable but bloody brilliant

Sorry, I loved the flow chart idea for damage.

Why sorry? I wasn't the one saying I disliked it, that was John T. Myself, I thought it was fairly clever, and no slower than the "shaped template" damage system Centurion (and Crimson Skies) used – which I also liked, for the record.

Sorry mate, cut 'n' pasted the wrong comment! Agree w/you wholeheartedly.

I'm genuinely sorry now I sold off all my RL titles when I moved across the country a decade ago. At the time it seemed like a good idea (and I DID need both the money and the space), but even if I never got the chance to play them again, it would be sweet to still have them.

… oh wait: I did keep Prefect. It was the one title I never found an opponent for, and refused to part with it w/o playing at least once.

Some day, some day …

Question for Battle Works (and anyone else interested in the IP):

Seriously -- short of reissuing (and, I assume, updating) all the various titles, what would you do with this property? Isn't there enough old FASA/C&C inventory out there for someone new who wants to get into this particular universe?

Not trying to pick a fight -- I'm a romaphile and always loved the idea of Romans in Space -- I'm genuinely curious.

It seems, especially with the recent explosion in starship fleet games, a miniature version of Leviathan would be a given (as long as the utterly broken missile rules are fixed), and both sci-fi skirmish and large unit action have never gone out of style.

However, would that be enough to justify a relauch? Aren't there enough other games/rules/figures in the same genre currently on the market? Isn't this a concept whose time has passed?

I was asking initially because Mongoose's recent revival of the Noble Armada universe (in the form of ACTA Noble Armada, and the upcoming new edition of the RPG) got me to thinking of other old settings that deserve another shot at life. Renegade Legion is certainly one of those – the setting itself was a very strong one, and Centurion in particular is still one of the best scifi ground combat games I've played. "Modernized" versions of the old RL games would probably do quite well – and the original games are starting to run out and becoming more and more expensive. Not like FASA ever pushed the RL games as hard as they did Battletech, and print runs weren't that large even at their peak.

I'm still inclined to believe the distributor staffers that told me (way back when) RL was actually selling fine, but the better it did, the worse BTech sold. Wargames West was convinced that FASA dropped RL because it was cannibalizing their own player base, and were too committed to BTech to abandon in favor of RL (a much better setting and rules family, IMO).

More recently, I've seen posts saying that Ravenstar Studios is planning on releasing minis based on the Leviathan fleet recognition guide, which indicates that someone out there must have sold him the rights to do so. Tried emailing him to ask who but I got a bounce the first couple of times. It would appear that he doesn't think its time has passed, and neither has CinC, who still produce some of the old minis.

Oh believe me, I absolutely understand and appreciate the urge (and need) to revive OOP games. Most of my purchases of the last few years have been new versions of games I played growing up, but didn't own when they first came out.

And, given my above lament, I'd probably buy new versions of the various RL games, particularly if the miniatures were good. (btw, just checked out Ravenstar's site: nothing about Leviathan, but GORgeous figures.)

As for wider interest, I did stumble across an RL yahoo group awhile back that was trying utilize the new 3-D printers in creating a line of Leviathan ships for their own use. But putting my own excitement aside, and having worked in the game industry at different times, I have to ask.

Yes, it was a great setting, and Interceptor will *always* be one of my favorite games, but is it enough to support a broad new line? FASA got out of the game business for a reason. The last decade is filled with the debris of many space combat titles (including several versions of B5). The BSG stuff is flying off the shelves and will do well over time, but mostly because they're flying without the weight of a license.

A new Renegade Legion might make it as a very narrow boutique line, especially with direct internet sales (what do you call the long tail stuff now, "superniche"? "subniche"?), and if the license if dirt cheap. Maybe that will be enough to keep both of us, and a small group of fans happy. (Or, everyone just waits for the fire sale to pick up some nice minis cheap.)

FASA didn't "get out of the game business" in anything but name – the core of the company turned themselves into WizKids as they chased the CMG market and perceived higher profits. You'll observe that was a fairly disastrous decision in the long run – the only survivor of all their CMGs is HeroClix (which survives on the strength of the comic licenses), while the strongest of the old FASA games (which they carefully retained the rights to) are still soldiering on under license. BTech and Shadowrun are both doing pretty well under Catalyst, while the WizKids CMG versions are both dead as doornails – and Catalyst pays for those licenses. Earthdawn's not exactly dead either.

One of the Shapeways stores did/does have the Shiva (in several sizes and mounting options, even) but last I looked that was the only Leviathan ship they'd done.

The Ravenstar announcement-of-sorts was over here:

link

They're WIP, due in November.

Well yeah, guess I should have put that in air quotes.

I was recalling something Jordan Wiseman once said (and don't remember now if it was in an interview, or from talking to someone who worked with them) -- but in the '90s in the wake of Magic, and the growing sophistication of computer games, Wiseman and Babcock projected ahead and saw nothing but diminishing returns for their niche of wargames/boardgames/RPGs. They had had a good run, but rather than alter their old brand and company, they decided it was better to simply reboot as several new corporations.

Sure, the prepainted mini market didn't work out (and who knew getting bought by Microsoft would have been a bad thing? :::rolls eyes:::) -- but the old FASA certainly "got out of the game business" when it shut down.

Just good to see they had the presence of mind to keep those IPs, and license them out.

Looks like the Leviathan model's been pulled.

At the time, the Shiva fig was the only one the modeler had planned to do. (this was the listserv btw link

hmmm, reading thru that SCN thread, Ravenstar didn't say he *didn't* have the license -- but it does sound interesting. If his RL ships are as good as the rest of his stuff…

The top ship in his retro line picture has a real "Iron Duke" vibe to it.

Well, I will definitely be one of the first in line if he does put some ships out. I have tried to find proxies through Firestorm Armada, etc. but they just don't have the right feel. As for rules amendments…Im sure lots of those would follow the production of cool miniatures!!! I agree that someone needs to just make a move on the RL rights. Pretty pathetic that someone doesn't just come forward and end this. In the end just do what the Chinese do change the name to "Benegade Region" and then we are all happy!

"Benegade Region"

Too funny…I would have spewed if I was drinking…my keyboard and I are quite happy that I was not :)

"Benegade Region"

Not as scary a typo as "Renegade Lesion"…. ;-)

Its not a typo… I had a Chinese exchange student friend in college and yes he called it this once when planning a game. And thats fine because Im sure no one knows how to say it in Chinese! Anyways, the point remains. Someone please make a move. I think the ship designs if named differently could be swung. Look at BT and Robotech. Even though there is fighting, the crossovers still exists. It would be nice to go to a company like Spartan games and see if they would be interested in expanding their fleets to include TOG and CW units. At that scale it would be really cool to play Lev!

Look at BT and Robotech.

You're kidding, right? The Harmony Gold legal mess led to the most iconic mech designs in BTech becoming "Unseen" for years, and the "Reseen" replacements are fairly sad sculpts IMO.

I'd rather see RL disappear forever than watch some IP piracy thing foul up the whole situation so badly that no legit company can ever get the license from whoever does own it.

Look at BT and Robotech. Even though there is fighting, the crossovers still exists.

That's not a good example. FASA licensed the Macross images, and when Harmony Gold got the US distro rights, they spammed C&Ds left, right, and sideways. During the trial(s), it came out that the people that HG had bought the rights from didn't have the rights to sell anymore…

Harmony Gold also *LOST* those lawsuits, but FASA decided it wasn't worth the headache and replaced the designs.

I second the idea that the least-legal but most effective way to find the IP-holder would be to start making minis.

Really you "would rather see it disappear"? Well, I see which side of the gaming community you come from. Some of us just play them. It is a Game for heaven's sake, not a corporate espionage case! And don't hold your breath on finding a solution, since that is the issue at point! There is no "legit owner" to get a license from. And even if someone comes forward the documentation and chain of custody looks so F@#$ed up that its unlikely they could make an effective case anyways. At this point in ten or so more years you will get your wish and RL will be no more. As far as BT and RT go, the crossovers go much deeper than just the miniatures! And…at least there were some minis to start with! We are at ZERO!
Sad that our society has come to this point that micro legalities override common sense.

'Micro' legalities equal macro dollars. And very few game companies can afford the legal talent to defend themselves against those successful game companies like GW or WotC.

I checked with my friendly lawyer clients (3 with big boats I work on) and they all said the same thing…there are proper channels to apply for ownership of an IP.

If there is no clear path of custodial ownership then apply to the last holder with a legal request via lawyers not gamers or company owners.

Also if there is no clear ownership or the ownership is contested via lack of use, development, or other than the right starting point would be the creator or original IP holder…those rights usually revert to the creator/first IP holder upon death for example.

And that should be former FASA president and Renegade Legion designer, Sam Lewis…unless I am way off.

*****

Up front I do not condone piracy of an IP for an purpose I only spoke off the cuff in a matter of fact "this should get the right person's attention" if all other measures have been tried.

Has anyone contacted Sam Lewis? I am sure he could clear this up in 2-3 minutes.

:)

I did some commercial and personal commission art work for FASA before the great purge and flush, I will try my contacts and see what happens.

There is no "legit owner" to get a license from.

Certainly there is. No one here knows who it is, but that doesn't mean no one owns the IP – no one here has invested any serious time and effort in researching the subject yet, that much is obvious. Sam Lewis does seem a likely candidate, but I haven't a clue as to how to contact him to ask, and he might not even be sure about the legal issues involved himself. Maybe 28mm Man can settle it, which was the original point of starting the thread.

As to the implication that my viewpoint stems from solely being a manufacturer, re-read my post. I respect other people's IPs more than some, but I'm also concerned that someone running with the IP sans license might lead to a situation that could shut off a legit license for good. If the owner takes legal action in response to IP theft, he's likely to perceive the property as being worth more than it really is – if nothing else he'll want to recoup any costs incurred by dealing with the pirate – thereby inflating the price of a license to beyond the point where anyone will pay it.

Ok…I found a lead, the last person on record to hold the IP, and have sent the appropriate emails.

Now the next question is this…is there anyone out there who is serious about this RL IP issue? Serious as in willing to put up some money.

I suspect that due to the potential tie in with BT that there may be some issues with carde blanche IP usage, but limited to use within the tightest range of wording…only the names and such that have been defined as RL property without any mention of BT or BT names/designs then I suspect there may even be room to navigate a fan based project. But this is strictly speculation.

I am letting one of my attorney (patent law) acquaintances take it by the reigns if I get an ugly email, but I suspect it will be civil.

*****

I will not be sharing any particulars of names, emails, or addresses until the time that the parties wish this to be released…not looking for grief you know :)

Biggest surprise I could have thought of…I got a response on the weekend.

Perhaps karma is with the Renegade Legion.

I got the name I was looking for, the emails have been passed along to the right person, and now we wait…but the good news is that the guy I got in touch with works with the person in question.

So answer is surely forthcoming.

It got to the point of wanting to know the extent of interest in the IP.

I said tabletop, miniatures, and system rules.

For those interested cross your fingers it seems like an answer is coming into range.

If this goes to the next step I hope there is someone who is going to step up…I had interest in the detective work.

My job is done and I am ready to hand this off…please tell me that someone out there is ready for the ball?

Ok even more communication on a weekend…how crazy is that?

It is a good news good news situation.

There is a clear and distinct IP holder and it is a company that I actually know to be fairly easy to deal with. They have a great deal of experience with many markets and have people working with them that know our market in particular.

Since the potential for marketability for this line has been dry for some time I suspect they would be willing to entertain a short term IP usage.

Since it isn't a person and is rather a corporation I have no issues sharing:

The IP owner is….drum roll…

Topps

Corporate Headquarters
Topps US
One Whitehall Street
New York, NY 10004
Tel: +1-212-376-0300
Fax: +1-212-376-0573

My job is complete…I do have a name, but that is better left for actual business contacts…please contact me if you want the name.

PS
Contact noted that the RL IP is buried in a group holding that contains several titles…if you establish any correspondence then you should note "formally owned by FASA tabletop gaming division" so you can get the right person involved.

Makes sense – no doubt acquired the rights as part of the WizKids purchase.

Glad to see that question answered. Thanks for doing the legwork, 28mmMan.

aucun problème c'était mon plaisir!

No problems mon', es cool runnings :)

Yes, well done.

Any updates on this?

As far as I know this detective work was done for academics…no one came forward to pursue the next step…but the same people still hold the IP…waiting for EvilMike Inc. to step to the plate!

:)