".50 Cal MG on British Shermans" Topic

Judging by the available pictures not many British Shermans (NE Europe 1944-45) carried the (US).50 cal machinegun.
Makes sense as the ammo wasn't in the British arsenal AFAIK.

But is it correct to assume that only a few Shermans were equipped with this MG?

I have 36 Sherman Vs and 8 Fireflies for the Guards Armoured Division still to finish. How many would you give a .50?

None.
IIRC the Sherman came with the .50 supplied as standard, tank commanders more often than not deleted the .50 altogether as being of limited use

The gun was an anti-aircraft weapon, and Allied aerial superiority precluded its necessity. Also in order to employ the weapon against ground targets, the commander had to exit the turret and expose himself to enemy fire.

Commanders – especially in Italy – found that the gun caught on low-hanging trees and vines and posed a danger to the crew commander's head and face.

You do see .50s fairly commonly on photos of British Shermans in Normandy, but they were certainly in the minority. From what little is written on the subject, they tended to be removed by regimental order, so a regiment would probably either have them or not – a mixture is probably therefore unlikely. I did recently read one report of a Motor Battalion in Normandy grabbing all the .50s from an armoured regiment as they ditched them en masse.

I don't recall ever seeing a Firefly with a .50 – maybe this was due to the .50 mounts being removed during modification?

According to an ex Firefly gunner the .50 slowed the TC down when exiting and the breech and the .50 slowed down the gunner couldn't do anything about the breech but could with the .50, have seen a .30 on a Firefly tho.

I've definitely seen photos of .50 cals on British Shermans, but as R Mark Davies says they were in a minority.

Some British Shermans had the .50 cal in Normandy (and elsewhere). I think they started to remove them soon afterwards. Sometimes they were replaced with a .30 cal. I haven't seen a Firefly with a .50 cal, but I have seen a photo of one with a .30 cal.

Had a quick trawl of my notes – from photos, the three British Armoured Divisions don't seem to have been keen on .50s, but photos of the 4th Canadian and 1st Polish Armoured Divisions show lots of .50s (maybe because they were late to Normandy?). The independent brigades – 4th, 8th, 27th & 33rd, as well as the Crabs of 79th Armoured Division, also have a fair few .50s evident.

Re ammo – .50 cal ammo was definitely in the British armoury. M10s had .50s regardless, as did Priests, halfracks and a number of other vehicle types. The RAF also made great use of .50s Cals.

Thanks very much again for all the replies!
I'll keep two or three .50 Cal machineguns on my Shermans at the most and the rest will have to do without.

Then put some of them on some of your infantry's Universal Carriers.

R Mark Davies wrote

I did recently read one report of a Motor Battalion in Normandy grabbing all the .50s from an armoured regiment as they ditched them en masse.

8th Rifle Brigade and 3rd Royal Tank Regiment in 11th Armoured Division are recorded as doing this this. It's in Delaforce's book, Black Bull.

What I've never managed to establish is how the .50 cals that 8RTR put on their halftracks were used.

Did the half tracks still withdraw after the infantry dismounted? (standard doctrine) Or did they stick about and use the .50 cals? If so who manned the things?

Anyone got any info on this?

Derek, the only account I've ever read of halftrack .50s being used in action is that of 4th Field Squadron Royal Engineers, in their defence of Wetteren Bridge in September 1944. In that instance, the halftracks were placed in the defence line to add their firepower to the dismounted Sappers.

That's interesting.

It seems sensible that Engineer halftracks would sometimes stick around after their passengers had dismounted in case they needed specialist kit from the vehicle.

That may be, but there is a specific quote from the squadron commander, stating that he stuffed them into the line to boost his defensive firepower.

I think it's important not to overdo the effectiveness of .50 cals in the AA mount. It's an AA weapon. Only about 300 rounds were carried – that's not a lot. And the commander has to stand on the tank deck to fire it at a ground target.

I think they were used primarily as a last ditch defensive measure. The halftrack would be very vulnerable, even to enemy MG42 fire, if put into LOS of the enemy.

It would be easy to give them a high firepower and allow players to use them in an ahistorical manner. ASL has this very wrong, as I think does Flames of War.

I thought the 50 cals were removed in England. As others have said the British opinion was that they were for AA use and more of a hindrance otherwise. There were a number of US tank crews removed their 50 cal and had 30 cals positioned so they were easier to use by the tank commander.

The job of the ww2 halftrack armour was to stop shrapnel splinters rather than bullets. They're not supposed to get into line of sight of the enemy at all.

While many .50s certainly were removed in the UK, a great many were not. As mentioned above, this was mainly a regimental thing – a regiment would either have them or they wouldn't (by regimental standing order).

Re halftracks – yes, that was the theory, but in reality they did often come into close proximity with the enemy and it was handy to have a weapon capable of hitting back effectively. As Derek says above, 8 RB was one such unit that, having received disarmed halftracks, did everything they could while in combat in Normandy, to re-install .50s on their halftracks. They certainly thought that the extra firepower was worth having. There are also a number of other Motor Battalions who retained .50 cals on their halftracks (or in the case of 1 RB, stuck them on their Carriers).

As Skarper says, their effectiveness is often seriously overestimated in wargames. If the commander is up and blatting away with .50and infantry, just who is commanding the tank?

In his history of 11th Armoured Delaforce suggests that 8RB had them on carriers as well.

"3RTR handed over dozens of superfluous .50 Brownings from their Sherman tanks (equipped with BESAS), which 8RB mounted on carriers, trucks and even on some scout cars."

Delaforce, P (2000) The Black Bull, Chancellor Press, p25.

picture of a .50 cal on a Canadian Universal Carrier.

Yes, some Motor Battalions were very keen on Carrier-mounted .50s – 1 RB, 8 RB and Lake Superior Regt that I know of. I don't recall having seen one on a line Infantry (as opposed to Motor) Battalion Carrier though.

I presume the 'Scout Cars' in question were M3A1 Scout Cars.