"Which Prehistoric Period Would You Choose To Colonize?" Topic

Imagine that . . .

. . . instead of sending a colony to a distant planet to ensure mankind's survival, a colony of 21st century humans (nearly 1000 souls – carefully chosen for their mission) is sent back in time to prehistoric days, to begin a new starting point for humans.

Your mission:

You are tasked with suggesting the best possible period in prehistory.

scotese.com/earth.htm
geology.com/pangea.htm
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1) Which period would you choose, that would give humanity the best possible chances for a new start?
2) Most importantly, why then?

Thanks,

Dan

Sorry Dan,

Not sure I can answer this one.

How can you ensure the future of the race by messing up its past?

Because I hate to totally derail a thread, I'd say it would have to be a time where the atmospheric conditions were proper for modern mammals to exist and where we could be sure that the sorts of plants we need to eat are present.

So really this isn't going to allow us to go too far back.

-Eli

What would be the point? Why not let evolution work? And why does humanity need a new start? If we so screwed things up the first time, what the heck makes anyone think we'd do better starting in a different period?

That's not meant to sound as confrontational as it reads. I just want more background on why in the first place?

Oh, and are they supposed to interfere with the developing hominids or humans that are already (or theoretically going to arise) where they go to?

Neotacha: "And why does humanity need a new start?"

1) We like to live and spread like viruses (same argument for space colonization)
2) Gamers absolutely loooove do-overs :)

Neotacha: "Oh, and are they supposed to interfere with the developing hominids or humans that are already (or theoretically going to arise) where they go to?"

I think that, if it had been a colony on a distant planet, we would have done the same to whatever life was there too.

Dan

Carboniferous

High oxygen levels. Giant insects and amphibians — a phenomena that allowed creatures whose size is constrained by their respiratory system to grow to much larger sizes than today.

Marine life was abundant. On land, large and diverse plant populations existed. Land vertebrates consisted of large amphibians and small reptiles.

All in all not a particular hostile environment and the plant resources could supply ample stocks of food, fuel, and building materials.

mjc

"Carefully chosen" can go the other way, removing from modern society those who don't fit. Put them far enough back that there is a major continental shift and/or ice age between then and now, and you won't even need to worry about fossil screw-ups too much.

The biggest issue I have with this is that is we have the tech to bend time, we've likely got the tech to fix the planet or go elsewhere.

Backtracking onto a timeline is never a good idea.

If you are going to use time travel as a fix, go forward millions of years into Earth's future, find a point where the planet hs repaired the damage we have inflicted and resettle there.

That, IMHO, is the way to implement the scenario you are suggesting.

-Eli

Eocene, maybe very early Miocene, for no other reason than I want cavalry riding enteledonts.

I think emu's concern was of Temporal Paradox, what if you went back and screwed things up so bad that it was impossible to build a time machine to go back and do it in the first place. Or what if you just 'did things the right way' the world turns out so good that nobody ever thought of going back in time to escape or even mess around with the past.

Which one had Raquel Welch in the fur bikini? I want that one.

Which one had Raquel Welch in the fur bikini? I want that one

Ninja'ed.

CmdrKiley has it right.

I'm not a huge fan of backward time travel to begin with. It's just impossible to calculate all the variables that could effect the future you are coming from. Distract somebody and you could interrupt a train fo thought that might have led to the inspiration that created their greatest theory, invention etc.

You don't have to kill somebody. You don't have to marry your mom. All you have to do is get somebody to go home for their watch and miss that cloud formation that filled in the blank part in their imagination.

So, really, going back in time with a population of people large enough to restart the human race, well down the tree of causality is a serious risk to the timeline.

But I'm preaching here

It's a cool idea, Dan, but really not workable for me.

-Eli

LOL. Reminds me of the Butterfly Effect concept:

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But, for the sake of this discussion . . .

. . . the colony's scientists discover that time travel really just takes you to a parallel Earth (think "Sliders"). So, in essence, you are just traveling to a different planet where conditions are uncannily similar to those of your Earth's past. :)

Dan
PS. About which figures to use as colonial guards . . .
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You do realize this post is illegal in some jurisdictions:

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I'm with Chuck – One Million Years BC !

LOL

So this is where some of you want to go?

groups.yahoo.com/group/cavewars

or

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Dan

If we are talking about "safe" time travel, then I would suggest that I wouldn't send them back too far. Sometime in the last 10,000 years would be far enough.

-Eli

I do believe that Dan, like myself, has considered the prehistory globes for inspiration for gaming…regardless of what or why that people end up there.

The simple fact of, the old globes look really cool and how fun would it be to transplant human society onto these alternate globes? Too cool is the answer.

I would suspect the science side of the house would be sending crews back for data collection, testing, etc. rather than establishing colonies.

*****

Another thread dealing with the time traveling science crew TMP link dealt with this very subject.

The Sea Orbiter picture could be equip to provide a proper atmosphere within the ship.

*****

But for that last minute the world is going to die via giant space rock the size of the moon, and we slip as many back in time as possible…and it becomes a random or darn the dial is stuck issue, then an interesting time line would be the Miocene picture

Great site for nice resolution prehistoric globes/maps link

*****

If I am picking one, just because it looks cool and would make interesting new world fun, then it would be this one picture with many many large islands, vast shallow seas surrounding most of the land masses, and I would chuck the seas full of these picture and the big mean fish would be fun also.

*****

As for paradox, I am on board the opinion that time is cyclic and intersects infinitely…if you could pick a point in prehistory and step from here to there, then that would not be history at that point as it is something that did not exist prior to that moment…so it would be a new timeline.

Neotacha said: That's not meant to sound as confrontational as it reads. I just want more background on why in the first place?

OK – just because I've given this a lot of thought for another reason, but will probably never turn it into a full fledged story (and if I do, Bill, we're gonna hafta talk about this…), let me run this by you folks for a possible back story for CC's question here…

In the early twenty-second century, mankind makes significant advances. We discover FTL flight, using a device that warps the very dimensions of space (based on a recent proposal that dimensions emerge from the universe as it cools, time is the latest dimension to emerge and we will eventually be living in a five dimensional universe, then six, and on…), giving us a way not only of traversing interstellar distances but traveling in time.

However… we are just emerging into the galaxy when we encounter an older space-faring race. This race has been building their empire system by system for tens of millions of years. Close to – but not quite – as technologically advanced as us they are however vastly more numerous and intent on crushing any race that might challenge their dominion.

We are locked in a war with them, not of our choosing, but because they will not compromise. At first, we are holding our own, even beginning to gain some ground. We are welcomed by other races that have been defeated and quarantined by the paranoid enemy. But the early reverses only make the enemy fight harder, determined to not only quarantine us but completely crush these young upstarts. Eventually, we see our doom approaching. We know we will not be able to defend Earth, so we make plans to evacuate the majority of the population to distant locations , far away from where we think the enemy will look.

But we also have another plan – to send a selected group of people far enough back in time to set up our civilization well ahead of the time that the enemy starts to build their empire. Due to limitations on the technology, we cannot send so many people back far enough to stop their interstellar capability from developing, but we can go back far enough that we have a chance to build our civilization up to a point where we are not so over matched.

I know there are the time paradox problems, and the same theory that talks about dimensions emerging as the universe cools after the Big Bang also makes it clear that time travel is not possible; trying to do so only sends you to an alternate quantum universe, so that means no effect on your own timeline. But if we ignore that, it raises some very intriguing possibilities…

Would we take some of the friendly aliens with us? Do our old divisions emerge once the threat is no longer so immediate? What if the reason the enemy is so paranoid is that their outlook was shaped by a race that tried to eliminate them tens of millions of years ago? Will the enemy ever get their hands on the time-travel technology? What happens to those that were sent out into the universe? And what about all the other questions that were asked in this thread, like what happens to the emerging hominids?

Just an idea, folks…

Wow. You guys are definitely taking this to an awesome level!

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Eli: "Sometime in the last 10,000 years would be far enough."

That definitely works for me!

"It was a timeship, with three men and a woman on board. Without moving a micron in space, it had traveled from 2070 A.D. to 12,000 B.C. – a journey that could never be repeated.
For the three men and the woman, all anthropologists, it was once-in-a-million-lifetimes expedition… a chance to study primitive man as modern man never could.
But spending four years in another millennium was a complex proposition, especially when two of the principals were having marital problems. But, then, no one was prepared for the startling truths about themselves and their subjects … or for the reverberations in a time that had yet to come!"
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Dan

Late Cretaceous Western Interior Seaway of North America. All of my favorite fish and marine reptiles are there. I wouldn't have to dig them up!

Here is an nice overview of what the Western Interior Seaway had to offer:
oceansofkansas.com

Sadly I would do the Dr. Smith in Lost in Space (only competently) to destroy/sabotage the mission.

Why?

That I have to work out but I immediately had that thought upon reading the OP. Seems good enough to me.

Gracias,

Glenn

Too many to decide. Maybe send them back to colonize the end of the last Ice Age, but also send expeditions to other time periods-Cretaceous, etc. for research purposes. Heavily armed expeditions

The end of the last Ice Age would have a suitable climate generally matching modern times. Some modern homo sapien primitives are around in case you need to increase the gene pool. Animals are large and dangerous, but not so large and dangerous as to be a constant menace. I'm assuming homotherium or cave lions could be driven away in most cases.

Quidveritas, When the Aliens start winning China might change it's tune (and demand half the slots!)

Gracias,

Glenn

Where did the aliens come from? A very small gene pool (say around 500 breeding pairs) around 80 million years ago?

Long enough for genetic drift and technological spread I would say to make a human genome look like something else.

Meh. Just a thought

I like the way Average Joe is thinking – I would pick the Juirassic because the climate is pretty forgiving and the name is cool – but if you really want to beat the aliens, going back 10,000 years or so should be plenty of time, even allowing for a generous maternity leave policy

Pellucidar, of course!

Why not go forward a million years. You really think we'd be around?

There is some concern for the next decade according to some…

Gracias,

Glenn

Hmm, the one where land carnivores are not present, but there are plenty of tasty crustaceans in the shallow seas that taste just like lobster and shrimp.

Then, the only issue will be to "discover" or make fire, and to locate sufficient butter to drench the creatures in before eating.

Ahh..the new TV series coming in the fall on Fox..Terra Nova.

"Sadly I would do the Dr. Smith in Lost in Space (only competently) to destroy/sabotage the mission.

Why?

That I have to work out but I immediately had that thought upon reading the OP. Seems good enough to me."

Funny, I would have shot Dr Smith in the head…immediately upon being a mincy evil SOB…"So Dr Robinson I see your insufferable children are…BANG…!" "I never did like that nancy…"

the one where land carnivores are not present, but there are plenty of tasty crustaceans in the shallow seas that taste just like lobster and shrimp.

But we don't know they taste like lobster or shrimp. Or that they're even edible, let alone palatable.

How much food do we get to send back with our intrepid crew of evolution-destroyers?

I would go with Eocene to Miocene. Lots of mammal meat, similar enough climate and foodwebs. If you go with a schema with parallel universes it is an opportunity to reset and avoid mistakes. Trouble is bringing enough people back to avoid interbreeding concerns. I would try for setting up a base on some sort of archipeligo, such that you could clear large carnivores off to protect the base camp, then travel to the mainland in a reasonable boat trip.
I think we would have real problems with any period prior to the KT boundary – just too different biomes. beyond that, the Mesozoic is likely doable, but dodging dinos could be less than fun and there are no grains unless we bring seeds.

How much food do we get to send back with our intrepid crew of evolution-destroyers?

Let's make this very interesting and say that time travelers have to travel ala Terminator, i.e., able to go back only with what God done give 'em…

So, no equipment, no computers, no guns, no radios. Only your native intelligence and physical strength. Makes picking the right people even more imperative.

Starkadder: "Long enough for genetic drift and technological spread I would say to make a human genome look like something else."

Well said. And my point exactly! With a new start millions of years earlier, our lineage would have gone on to develop into amazing form(s), provided we used our knowledge of (now future) extinction events.

Warbeads: "Sadly I would do the Dr. Smith in Lost in Space (only competently) to destroy/sabotage the mission. Why? That I have to work out but I immediately had that thought upon reading the OP. Seems good enough to me"

How come? What did I do?

Dan

BTW, is anyone else thinking of A Sound of Thunder?

And I remember reading in Discover magazine years ago that the minimum population to ensure genetic diversity in a breeding group of mammals is two hundred unrelated individuals. I think CC is safe taking 1,000.

Ah, yes, Terra Nova. I saw an ad for that and from it got the premise that the Current World was somehow in peril, so we were sending a bunch of people back in time to start over again.

And when do we send them to? The Jurassic. Wonderful idea, that. Can anyone see a potential problem here? I mean, aside from the large carnivorous critters chomping on the tasty, snack-sized humans?

WHAT ABOUT THE DAMN ASTEROID STRIKE THAT TOOK OUT THE DINOSAURS? Regardless of whether that was the primary cause or merely the final nail in the dinosaur coffin, I think I would send the final hope of Humanity to sometime after that event if I wanted to avoid a potential disaster. Reminds me of Star Trek: Generations, when Picard is told that he can leave the Nexus at anytime he wants. What time does he choose to go back to? Ten minutes before the madman's plan goes into effect. Why not twenty years earlier Jean-Luc, when you can take out that madman when he first shows up on your ship?

Besides, things do not look good for Terra Nova:

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I am not holding my breath…

I'm like the classics:

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Average Joe: "And I remember reading in Discover magazine years ago that the minimum population to ensure genetic diversity in a breeding group of mammals is two hundred unrelated individuals. I think CC is safe taking 1,000."

I was anticipating objections of genetic stagnation, so I went over the 200-500 individuals required in most estimates:

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Average Joe: "WHAT ABOUT THE DAMN ASTEROID STRIKE THAT TOOK OUT THE DINOSAURS?"

I also anticipated that when I said, a few posts above: "With a new start millions of years earlier, our lineage would have gone on to develop into amazing form(s), provided we used our knowledge of (now future) extinction events."

Average Joe: "BTW, is anyone else thinking of A Sound of Thunder?"

I loved that short story: link

QuidVeritas: "Carboniferous. High oxygen levels. Giant insects and amphibians — a phenomena that allowed creatures whose size is constrained by their respiratory system to grow to much larger sizes than today."

Well, here are some interesting points of view about time travel to the carboniferous, with pros and cons:

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I'm sure you remember (and enjoy) this:

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Dan

"And when do we send them to? The Jurassic. Wonderful idea, that. Can anyone see a potential problem here? I mean, aside from the large carnivorous critters chomping on the tasty, snack-sized humans?"

And don't forget the psycho splinter group of hoomans that are trying to destroy the project :0 <lol>

"A Sound of Thunder":

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Wow. I didn't know they had made the short story into a movie!

Well, based on the trailer, some of these 15mm guys might work, right?

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Dan
groups.yahoo.com/group/cavewars

Wolfshanza: "Ahh..the new TV series coming in the fall on Fox..Terra Nova."

I didn't know about that!

" . . . an incredible journey back in time to prehistoric Earth as a small part of a daring experiment to save the human race. In the year 2149 the world is dying. The planet is overdeveloped, overcrowded and overpolluted. With no known way to reverse the damage to the planet, scientists discover a portal to prehistoric Earth. This doorway leads to an amazing world, one that allows for a last-ditch effort to save the human race…a second chance to rebuild civilization and get it right this time."
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"This is the tenth pilgrimage back to prehistoric Earth, bringing the number of colonists in the past up to 1000."
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More:

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Man, this is uncanny!!!

Dan

Man, this is uncanny!!!

THEY are watching…

They? As in Spielberg?

LOL

Dan

No Fox is watching to see if it needs cancelling!

And don't forget the psycho splinter group of hoomans that are trying to destroy the project :0 <lol>

Wolfshanza, the executives at Fox hardly qualify as hooman. No one with any sense of humanity would have cancelled Serenity…

And CC, I knew you had more sense than to discount the asteroid strike or other extinction level events. I just don't think anyone connected with Terra Nova has taken such into consideration.

And as far as the movie of A Sound of Thunder goes, save your eyeballs. It wasn't a very good adaptation at all. That film is one of the ones required of Ben Kingsley by the Devil when he sold his soul to be in films like Ghandi and Schindler's List.

LOL

AJ, you crack me up! Thanks for the warning.

Dan

I want to send them back to about 4000BC when this stuff was going on… YouTube link

No need to do much invention about people and dinosaurs when it's all right there.

Yabba dabba don't!

John T