"Fallschirmjager organisation May 41" Topic
10 Posts
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charon | 13 Feb 2011 4:17 a.m. PST |
Hello All, I've searched 'Fallschirmjager' and read a few posts, but non answered my questions. A FJ battalion circa Crete would appear to have 3 rifle companies each of three rifle platoons. There was a fourth company in the battalion but this may have included only HQ, pioneer and admin platoons etc. The battalion weapons listings I have seen indicate the three rifle company/nine rifle platoon organisation and no 8cm mortars or MMGs. Each FJ regiment had an IG company and an AT company. 7th Flieger division had a Machine Gun battalion of 3 companies, each of 2 MMG and one 8cm mortar platoon. These may have been allocated to the FJ regiments. Does anyone have a link or information re FJ battalion organisation for May 41 that would confirm or refute my information? Cheers, Steve |
Martin Rapier | 13 Feb 2011 6:31 a.m. PST |
Each battalion supposedly had four companies, and I'd be surprised if No. 4 company in each battalion wasn't the weapons company. Battalion HQ wasn't usually a 'company' as such, unlike in British battalions. However, if the weapons listings don't show any 80mm mortars, then maybe they didn't have them. I've not been able to find any definite info one way or another. |
charon | 13 Feb 2011 7:51 a.m. PST |
I have read recently that a FJ battalion required 53 JU 52 to carry it. At 12 men per plane, a FJ company would required say 14 planes. Three companies = 42 planes. This would leave 11 planes for the rest of the battalion. Companies in the MG battalion (2 MG and 1 mortar platoons each), had some 140 men (?), this would indicate that 12 planes would be needed to lift them. Each platoon would require 3-4 planes each. Given that only 11 planes were needed to lift the rest of a FJ battalion, it would seem a bit of a stretch that a FJ battalion included mortar and MG platoons. Not a very scientific way to decide whether or not a FJ battalion had organic mortar and MG platoons I know, but information seems hard to come by. Finally, why did 7th Flieger division include a MG battalion? The MG and 8cm mortar platoons were normally part of a battalion. Steve |
Gary Kennedy | 13 Feb 2011 8:50 a.m. PST |
You may well have seen the following, but they're still interesting – link link The US Army Handbook on German Military Forces of September 1943 (TM-E 30-451) doesn't add a lot more to the bulletins from the end of 1942. It offers no details whatsoever on the possible internal organisation of the German Para Bn, but uses the transport aircraft available to give an overview. A z.b.V. Geschwader is noted as consisting of "approx 200 aircraft", subdivided into four Gruppen, each of four Staffeln of twelve aircraft apiece. The JU52 is reckoned to carry between 10-12 personnel, allowing for 120 to 144 to be lifted by a single Staffel. The Staffel is noted as being split into four Ketten, eacy carrying roughly a Platoon. There is some conflict between the 1942 bulletin and the 1943 technical manual; basically I think the writers were as in the dark on the details as we seem to be now
No German Para KStN appear to have survived the war from anywhere earlier than mid-1944, by which point the Fallschirmjager were about as air portable as the average Panzer Grenadier Div. That makes reverse engineering to 1941 a little difficult. We can speculate wildly I suppose, for instance I can't see why they couldn't allow for a pair of MG34s on sustained fire mounts at Coy level, or likewise a Mortar Pl with four 8-cm at Bn. The second link above indicates a separate flight element for Bn HQ, so the fourth Coy would almost certainly be a fire support unit. Considering the amount of interest in the German airborne arm, it seems surprising there's no solid information on how they lined up for operations at Pl/Coy/Bn level. Gary |
Samurai Elb | 13 Feb 2011 10:04 a.m. PST |
I was just moving and my different books to this topic still are in boxes but the FallschirmjägerBtl had in Crete besides three rifle company a 4th support company called heavy weapons company (schwere Waffen Kompanie) with MMG and 8cm mortars. The Btl HQ and the Supply unit (german: Troß) did not count as company. I am not sure if the 8cm mortars were at least sometimes the shortened version specially for Fallschirmjägers (so-called Stummelwerfer) and some of the heavy weapon company might have the new recoilless gun (Leichtgeschütz 40) too. At least one of the 4th companies of the Luftlandesturmregiment seemed to have landed without heavy weapons as a rifle company perhaps because of transport cability problems. Transport cability seemed to be a major problem. The units airlanding with the Lastensegler had only 9 or 10 men groups as the usual 12 men groups. The MG Bataillon had as mentioned three companies with MMG and mortars but no recoilless guns. Please execuse errors english is not my own language. Werner G. Elb |
Gary Kennedy | 13 Feb 2011 10:28 a.m. PST |
Right, let's have a go at a provisional organisation, pure guesswork of course so worth whatyou pay for it; Battalion HQ, with command and communication personnel (the train element would almost certainly be part of the 'seaborne tail', though a few men from it might jump). MG/Heavy Coy; say two Pls, each with four HMG teams, and one Pl with four 8-cm mortar dets, tracing back from the later model. Three Rifle Coys; Coy HQ, and rather than MGs let's go instead for three 5-cm mortar teams. An Atk Rifle section is another possibility, but perhaps Crete would be too early. Then three Rifle Pls, each of a HQ and three Squads, each with a single LMG. Maybe a Pl HQ of officer, NCO, medic and three messengers, and each Squad of ten men. Re the recoilless 7,5-cm guns, might they have been with the Regimental Gun Coy at this stage, and attached to Bns rather than being integral I wonder? They came in later on at Bn level, but I think were quite new in 1941. Gary |
charon | 13 Feb 2011 11:11 a.m. PST |
There is a file in the Yahoo TO&E group on German organisation, but no date is given for the FJ battalion. Since Panzerschrecks are mentioned, I do not think this is likely to be a Crete period. It has more incommon with standard infantry organisations German Fallschirmjaeger Battalion (Note: Carried by 53 Ju.52, and initially dropped with only Luger and grenades. Small arms and ammo dropped seperately in containers) Battalion Headquarters Pioneer Platoon Communications Section [12 Enlisted] 1 x Radio Heavy Weapons Company Company Headquarters [1 Officer, 5 Enlisted] Communications Section [12 Enlisted] Radio 2 Machinegun Platoons [12 Enlisted each] 2 x 7.92mm MMG Heavy Mortar Platoon Platoon Headquarters [1 Officer, 3 Enlisted] 1 x Radio 2 Heavy Mortar Sections Section Headquarters [4 Enlisted] 2 x 80mm Mortars [7 Enlisted each] 3 Parachute Companies Company Headquarters [1 Officer, 5 Enlisted] Communications Section [12 Enlisted] 1 x Radio 3 Parachute Platoons Headquarters Section 1 x Pistol 2 x 9mm SMG 1 x FG42 7.92mm LMG 1 x G98 Rifle* (Assistant LMG Gunner) 1 x PSK (4 PSK rounds) 1 x G98 Rifle* (Assistant PSK Gunner) (4 PSK rounds) 1 x G98 Rifle* and Radio (Forward Observer) 1 x G98 Rifle* (Assistant Forward Observer) 3 Rifle Sections 1 x 9mm SMG 1 x FG42 7.92mm LMG 1 x G98 Rifle* (Assistant LMG Gunner) 1 x G98 Rifle* and Radio 6 x G98 Rifle* * – Rifles may be replaced with 9mm SMG and/or MP44 Assault Rifles Steve |
Gary Kennedy | 13 Feb 2011 11:43 a.m. PST |
That looks odd in parts; radios down to section level and forward observers in each platoon? As you say, looks for late 1943 into 1945, but doesn't scan with the authorised strengths for that period either, but these are still airborne who liked to be different
One thing that does occur is that Pioneer Pls were generally absent from standard German Inf Bns, the idea being they were formed from existing personnel if required. Motorised and Mechanised units did though have them in their Heavy Coys until mid-war, when they were kicked upstairs to form Regt Pioneer Coys. The late war Fallschirmjager Regt included a Pioneer Coy, but whether that was a remnant of previous set-ups or a new addition as they switiched to a motorised infantry role I'm not sure. Gary |
Martin Rapier | 13 Feb 2011 12:30 p.m. PST |
In Bob Mackenzies 'The Thin Grey Line' has some organisational info for 7th Flieger Div in 1941, although mainly based on its commitment in Russia in late 1941 as he also says that info on its earlier composition is fairly notional. He's got the Para battalions of 1st & 2nd FJR with a heavy company as outlined above – two MG platoons and a small (4 tube) 81mm mortar platoon. He's also got 75mm recoilless rifles in a Regtl company. Interestingly, the MG battalion (which fought with 4th SS in Russia) is a pure MG battalion ie three MG platoons per company, no mortars at all. Maybe its organisation changed after Crete. |
davidedwardmawer | 29 Aug 2019 9:24 a.m. PST |
Recommended reference is Roger Edward's "German Airborne Troops' Purnell Book Services Ltd 1974. Parachute company has 144 officers & men. Three companies for each of the three battalions in the regiment. The mortars & machine-guns were organised into the fourth company of each battalion. Anti-tank and mountain guns at Regiment level. Glider & air-landing troops (with regular or mountain infantry) also used of course. |
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