"Swiss Mercenaries during the WSS" Topic

Unless I'm misunderstanding something, it seems the Swiss provided regiments to both the French and their Dutch enemies.

Was this a policy of the Swiss cantons, or did they simply allow recruiters from various nations to enter the country and enlist soldiers?

Wouldn't it have been rather awkward for Swiss regiments in the employ of opposing states to meet each other on the battlefield?

I've always been fascinated with the idea of states selling the services of their troops to other states, so any enlightenment this most erudite body of gentlemen wargamers could provide herewith upon the subject would be greatly appreciated.

I doff my tricorne to you in advance.

They usually declined to shoot at each other if they met on the field..the Spanish had some as well.

The Swiss were recruited in a bunch of different cantons. You can read about some details of the Swiss in French service here: link (scroll down to the bit about the foreign regiments). For a detailed treatment, you should check John Lyn's book Giant of the Grand Siecle.

"They usually declined to shoot at each other…"

Really? Do you have an example of that?

Well it might be in John Lyns book but I am not sure..pretty common knowledge 30 years ago..I think their contracts may have stipulated this fact..I will leave it to others..

I didn't read it in either of Lyn's books. I'd be surprised if it were true, but if there's an example of it I'm happy to learn.

At least two regiments in the army of Savoy; also, there were Swiss Guards for the Prussian court, too.

<<"They usually declined to shoot at each other…">>

Out of period, but I believe two Swiss units beat each other up quite badly at Baylen in 1808; apparently, the fighting broke out during a truce when the two regiments were fraternising and swapping news from home. I believe the French withdrew all of their Swiss regiments soon after that, to avoid it happening again.

well I will have a look around ..if time permits..

I seem to recall reading that the Swiss in Dutch service were Protestant and the French ones Catholic.

Individual Swiss sometimes signed on outside their homeland, but basically Swiss troops were recruited by companies or regiments through contracts with the cantons, rather than through foreign recruiters operating inside the Confederation. The Papal Swiss Guard come from Catholic cantons only, however I'm not sure that applied to 18th C. French and Dutch contracts.

These "articles of capitulation" would often (always?)include a clause ensuring that the troops could not be ordered into direct confrontation with their compatriots. In the stately evolutions of the 17th and 18th C., this may have been reasonably easy to comply with (one reason for their distinctive, wavy flag patterns?). During Napoleonic times this may have been more difficult, hence most Swiss in British service found themselves serving in the colonies.
The post-Baylen incident must have been an "accident" in this context.

The Swiss Guard companies of early 18thC Prussia, and Saxony as well, were modeled on the Cent-Suisses, i.e. palace guards. To the best of my knowledge neither ever saw wartime action. Nifty uniforms though!

Presumably, being French- or German-speaking might have had more bearing on which units you served in, and hence which foreign state you might fight for.

Here are some links that tend to back up Cardinal Hawkwood's assertions as well as Musketier's:

The historical dictionary of Switzerland has this article about the big controversy that came up in the aftermath of Malplaquet. That is here:

link

The wikipedia.de talks about it, again about what happened at Malplaquet when the Swiss in Dutch service fought the Swiss in French service, which did violate the terms of their contracts, that is here:

link

Down the page where the subtitle is Schweizer Truppen auf Beiden Seiten, Politische Folgen, or Swiss Troops on Both Sides, Political Consequences these issues are directly addressed. Where they speak of 8,000 Swiss dead on that field we think of as a British-Allied vs French field, they are adding both sides together if not adding wounded or at least died of wounds.

The first one has French, German or Italian, and the second German text, and there is a translate link here by the top of the page-

link

click on the blue link there that says 'translate homepage' and then you can copy-paste chunks of text in to have a quick translation and see what the English wiki did not put in their article, let alone books, thus causing the confusion for English readers.

Well I was pretty certain I was correct..nort something you make up..I think I may have first read it in Feathertone or Charles Grant..that old..

"Presumably, being French- or German-speaking might have had more bearing on which units you served in"

Not sure this would have been a key factor? Switzerland then was largely German-speaking (most of the French- and Italian-speaking territories joined the Confederation later), and anyway regiments could and did pass from one sovereign to another when funding ran out – no money, no Swiss…

Never thought about the Swiss fighting Swiss before, but for Malplaquet i have the follwoing details, however on the Dutch (left) wing the 30 btns suffered a total of 5,068 killed & wounded.
they were – May, Sturler, Mestral, the Grisons Schmid and Dohna (1 btn) total 9 btns (maybe 5,400 men)

The French had 8 Swiss btns with the May, Greder and Brendlé Regiments, at 500 each a total of 4,000 men max.

so I think the 8,000 Swiss dead is wrong (more like total engaged on both sides), also not convinced the Swiss came into contact although they were on the same wing, the French Swiss were in reserve and I think only covered the withdrawel (there were already 38 French btns facing the 30 Dutch)

however interesting articles i can add to my collection on the battle.