Musketier | 29 Nov 2010 2:49 a.m. PST |
During a recent visit to the Brussels Army Museum, I came across a mitre labelled "Grenadier mitre of the Gardes Francaises, late 17th C." It was of blue and red cloth with white tape edging and a small oval shield bearing three fleur-de-lys. The overall appearance is very much like a British mitre of c. 1700. I had no idea French grenadiers wore cloth mitres at any time, but then I'm certainly no expert. Would anyone perhaps be able to shed some light on this? |
de Ligne | 29 Nov 2010 3:31 a.m. PST |
I believe that mitres like the one you have described were worn by Garde drummers – Pengel and Hurt have one illustrated. |
abdul666lw | 29 Nov 2010 5:04 a.m. PST |
Mitres, just like bearskin, are an evolution of the 'fatigue cap' (often called 'dragoon cap' in France) initially worn by grenadiers. To make the men look taller / more impressive the front of the cap was progressively made rigid and higher (discussed long ago by Desmond Morris, in 'The Human Zoo' link ). Then: -either the raised part received some form of decoration (-> mitre) -or the whole 'turban' was covered with fur to make the men look more 'barbarian' / 'tatar-like' (re. the 1st cap of the French Household 'Grenadiers a Cheval) (-> bearskin): note the correlation with the (Tatar / Hungarian / Croat fashion) mustaches as another characteristic of grenadiers. Thus it is not surprising that soon after their creation French grenadiers wore a modified fatigue cap = mitre. Seemingly a few French units kept the grenadier mitre later: there is a bizarre illustration that can correspond to a '100 Swiss' in 'field' uniform picture ? Royal Ecossais grenadiers by Culloden times wore a mitre of rather British pattern (maybe, like all Irish regiments in French service, they were 'theoretically' part of a legitimate British army in exile?) -discussed with a link to an actual one in an earlier 'Royal Ecossais' thread here. |
Jemima Fawr | 29 Nov 2010 6:59 a.m. PST |
Is it possible that the cap is merely a floppy fatigue ('Wee Willie Winkie') cap that the museum curator has incorrectly stiffened upright to make it look like a mitre, as that was what he was familiar with? Stranger things have happened in museum collections. |
Camcleod | 29 Nov 2010 8:42 a.m. PST |
The Seven Years War Journal had an article on the French Grenadier Mitres. It included some contemporary prints as I recall. |
Der Alte Fritz | 29 Nov 2010 9:00 a.m. PST |
I believe that there is another example of a French grenadier mitre in the Musee d'Armee at Les Invalides in Paris. This is the example cited in the SYW Assn Journal mentioned by Camcleod. It is definitely a mitre and not a fatigue cap -- I've seen it with me own eyes, I did. |
Musketier | 29 Nov 2010 10:44 a.m. PST |
Thanks for that hint, I'll have to look that one up! |
NBATemplate | 29 Nov 2010 12:48 p.m. PST |
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seneffe | 29 Nov 2010 6:26 p.m. PST |
I'm sure I have read- but cannot think of the reference- that the 3rd Grenadier Company of the Gardes Francaises- wore mitre caps for a few years in the c1730s. The other Grenadier Companies wore I think a bearskin cap- although there are few illustrations of Gardes wearing Grenadier caps of any kind until the 1770-80s. I don't know why the 3rd Company should have briefly adopted the mitre cap, or why it changed- but I'm think it was just that company in the whole regiment. Annoyingly- the reference is still eluding me
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Grenadiers zu Fuss | 15 Dec 2010 8:50 a.m. PST |
A very interesting mitre. Look at the brass front. It contains crossed axes and what looks to be a protractor or divider open and pointing down. Are you sure this is a grenadier mitre or is it possibly a pioneer/engineer mitre? |
DHautpol | 15 Dec 2010 9:22 a.m. PST |
"what looks to be a protractor or divider open and pointing down". Perhaps they're Freemasons and not Grenadiers; after all this is the Age of Enlightenment! |
spontoon | 27 Dec 2010 7:39 a.m. PST |
I doubt if any of these mitre-caps are authentic. I agree with R. Mark Davies above that they may be improperly displayed museum pieces. We are still sorting out the mistakes of 19th. century conservators. I can still remember a display at the Niagara Historical Museum showing a powder horn labelled thus, " Powder Horn, very old." I have a 1942 Christmas Annual from Sweden that shows pictures of Museum mannequiins dressed in mixtures of uniforms covering almost a century. I believe that's where the lapels on Carolean Swedish troops come from, wearing a 1765 uniform with the coat skirts down rather than tacked back!It also shows the famous falling bag grenadier cap. On close inspection one can see the two holes in the brass plate where the bag was originally stitched up. Over time the threads have owrn out and the bag has fallen. Even Knotel cannot be quoted with authority, due to the time he was working, and the evidence he had available. Anything outside his own time period cannot be taken as an absolute. The "Royale Ecossais" mitre cap was proved to be a British Militia cap years ago. French Grenadiers were, officially at least; only distinguished by moustaches and curved sabres. I don't think Pengel & Hurt can be quoted with any authority. Hardly primary sources! Seventh-hand sources, maybe. After purchasing copies of their works 20 years ago I was convince that the Swedes spelled "Kuraissier" starting with a "J"! So many typos! As far as the afore-mentioned cap having the three fleur-de-lys on it, well so does the coat or arms of Great Britain, and Bosnia! Proves nothing regarding it's nationality. There is a picture in an old Rene North book of a 18th. century recruiting sign board supposedly of a French Grenadier Francaise with a mitre. However the writing on the actual board reads " Franconen" not "Franzosen" so I believe it as actually a Franconian grenadier. This closely resembles the Knotel plate of the Garde Francaise drummer with a mitre. |
spontoon | 27 Dec 2010 7:44 a.m. PST |
Puhhleeze! Abdul66, you're not seriously using "Battledress" as a serious uniform reference? With those colouring-book illustrations? |
Musketier | 21 Jan 2011 3:12 a.m. PST |
In the recently re-opened exhibition on the 18th C and Napoleonic period at Les Invalides, the mitre cap referred to above (case 3AR1, item 7)is now billed as that of a Swiss Guard pioneer's ("soldat charpentier"), c. 1750 Its decor does indeed closely resemble that of the front plate of a later bearskin cap, in an engraving of a Swiss Guard pioneer reproduced in the same room. @ Spontoon: The German for Franconian would be "fränkisch" or "fraenkisch" – no "o" anywhere
18th C. spelling and calligraphy however can be baffling, e.g. "französischen" as the genitive for French might be spelt/abbreviated to something like "Frantzoes-n"? |
spontoon | 22 Jan 2011 2:47 p.m. PST |
The cap definitely does have attributes of a pioneer. Still doesn't look like something the Swiss guard would ahve worn to me. All other representations of Swiss grenadier caps show fur caps. |
abdul666lw | 23 Jan 2011 3:15 a.m. PST |
Regimental pioneers often wore a variant of the grenadier headgear. Ca. 175O the bearskin was still uncommon in the French army -the fashion seemingly introduced by 'foreign' regiments. Of course the Swiss Guards were 'foreigners', but there's an extra complication: by that time they did not have grenadiers of their own , the part was played by the '100 Suisses'
. |
abdul666lw | 23 Jan 2011 10:05 a.m. PST |
link No information about the origin and *date* of the painting. The combination of full turnbacks with old-fashioned stockings (worn above the breeches) seems a little odd? |
Musketier | 24 Jan 2011 2:52 a.m. PST |
Allowing for a bit of artist's licence on the embroidery, that link shows the type of mitre displayed in the Brussels Army Museum. So at least we know where they may have culled the attribution from
From other illustrations I've seen the Gardes francaises seem to have adopted turnbacks fairly early on when they received the blue coats (1694?), so the combination with over-stockings may not be stretching things too far. |
Musketier | 24 Jan 2011 3:06 a.m. PST |
As for the Swiss Guards, if there were no grenadiers in 1750, that would leave the pioneers without a "regimental" model for their cap – and coming from a Germanic cultural background, they may have drawn on the mitre type rather than the bearskin? For that matter, even later pioneers and grenadiers need not have worn the same or similar types of caps. Incidentally, the later illustration referred to above can be found here: wapedia.mobi/en/Swiss_Guard#1. First time I hear about the Cent-Suisses being considered the Swiss Guard's grenadiers though – I had always understood the two bodies to be quite distinct, the former being almost a hundred years older than the latter, and fulfilling different sets of duties? |
abdul666lw | 24 Jan 2011 2:10 p.m. PST |
First time I hear about the Cent-Suisses being considered the Swiss Guard's grenadiers though Can't find at the moment the initial reference, but it appears in Wikipedia link (I know, I know
):(translated): 'In 1763 the regiment received a grenadiers company; so far its part was played, *in the field*, by the 100 Swiss'. Indeed the 2 corps were totally different from the historical and administrative points of view: the 100 Swiss, raised in 1497, were part of the 'Garde du Dedans du Louvre' ('Indoors Guard', oldest, most senior and closest to the King); the Gardes Suisses were raised in 1616 and -like the Gardes-Françaises- while having 'Guard' status (and not being numbered among the infantry regiments) were not part of the 'Household'. When the King was with the Army both the 100 Swiss and the Guard infantry brigade accompanied him. All that the quotation suggests is that, in such circumstances, the 100 Swiss were deemed to play the part of the (non-existent) grenadiers of the Gardes Suisses. Maybe only in parades actually, since their basic duties were quite different? |
spontoon | 29 Jun 2011 1:28 p.m. PST |
Regarding the painting of the so-called drummer of the Gardes-Francaises. Note that the drummer in the picture has half-lapells, or Bavaroises, on his coat. There is no record in the ordonnances detailing the uniforms of the Gardes-Francaises including bavaroises. There are quite good illustrations accompanying these documents, no bavaroises! Also in the painting the lace doesn't seem to be of the pattern used in grande tenue King's livery. |
spontoon | 29 Jun 2011 1:36 p.m. PST |
Also the style of painting reeks more of the Third Empire than military illustration of L'ancien Regime. Not a contemporary illustration, but one removed by a century. I'm still leaning towards a mislabelled Franconian uniform, who did have Bavaroises! |
abdul666lw | 29 Jun 2011 2:19 p.m. PST |
The painting of the so-called "drummer of the Gardes-Francaises" link is clearly related (at the origin of?) the so-called 100 Suisse in field dress
If there is something authentic here (???) a n°2 dress would sport only the petite livree; the attribution to 'Gardes Francaises' may be due to the blue coat, if done by someone ignoring that all drummers of the Gardes wore the King's livery (blue coat on red)??? |
spontoon | 29 Jun 2011 2:37 p.m. PST |
I haven't been able to find a picture online, but the unit I think might belong to this mitre-cap is; The Duke of Bourbon's Grenadier regiment in the Army of Conde. This was an emigre force in Russian service. There is an illustration of said grenadier in Preben Kannik's Uniforms of the World in Colour. This unit would have had the Bourbon arms on it's mitre-caps, and it's pioneers would have mitres. |
spontoon | 30 Jun 2011 6:13 p.m. PST |
No sign of lapells on the Gardes Suisse uniforms in the ordonnances, either. The lace is not the pattern worn in of the tenue's of the garde, or French line. Too much white, not enough red. I haven't found the details yet, but I believe the Cent Suisse only received a " Field dress" under Louis XVI. Apparently he had to give them some military function in order to justify their expense! |
Louis Maeve de Malet | 25 Jan 2013 3:10 p.m. PST |
It is possible that this is the cap of a Zimmermann of the Hessen-Darmstadt regiment in French service. The configuration of the Schild as well as of the Kranz are alomost identical to the that of the Leib-Grenadier-Garde-Regiment of Hessen-Darmstadt. The differences are in the substitution of Fleurs-de-Lys for flaming grenades, and -- of course -- French heraldic elements instead of Hessian. Fritz Kredel did a series of pictures of the Darmstadt regiments, and I think that the one in French service is also shown. I do not have a copy of the work, but anyone who DOES have a copy could check this out. |
Camcleod | 25 Jan 2013 7:12 p.m. PST |
Another painting of a French Guard? Grenadier in cloth mitre:
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